This map just turned very blue this week

[kramsret]

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[Dave]

http://www.electoral-vote.com/jul/jul14.gif

Polls are one thing. As we know it is the actual vote that counts. It's still a long way to November and Kerry is in my view a very weak Democratic Candidate. Weak enough to give Bush a chance of gaining a second term :eyes

At this point dukakis held a 15 point lead over Bush 41

At this point Carter held a 9-11 point lead over reagan

At this point Bush 41 held a 7 point lead over Clinton

At this point dole and clinton were tied

At this point Gore held a lead over Bush 43

SO it's safe to say is at this point it seems Bush 43 is in for another 4 years!

[Dave]

SO it's safe to say is at this point it seems Bush 43 is in for another 4 years!

Like I said to Kram, November is still a long way off.

[sir digalot]

the funny thing is we are very quick to dismiss the contender... they are in all terms the contender, we have little idea about how they will perform in office as they have not been in office.

It is alot easier to see how the incumbant performs though.

give kerry some time to actually canvas and then start looking at the polls... it has barely been a week since he picked his running mate... as of now bush has a 4 year advantage and head start over kerry.

Digs,

History has shown the more people see Kerry the less they like him. This is the reason new commercials will actually FEATURE edwards. Kerry will not be in them at all.

Its wierd but Kerry is trying to come in under the radar and have people vote for him as the Anti-Bush candidate, and not vote for him becaue they support him.

[Atenhotep]

I have a more complete listing here:

http://www.politicsandcurrentaffairs.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=2811

... which I posted just yesterday.

[Atenhotep]

Its wierd but Kerry is trying to come in under the radar and ...

Bobboi, he doesn't need to do anything. Bush is shooting himself in the foot everyday.

You guys should be pretty worried when the democrats are sitting back and taking it easy.

Just wait until the DNC.

Bush it gone.

Not because of of the Democrat's ability to provide relentless "Character Assassinations" - which seem to be the only strength the GOP really has - but because this administration is THE absolute worst EVER in our history and you can only fool the majority of Americans for so long ....

Bush is gone.

Next time a Republican is ever trusted again they should actually try to be honest.

[ninjalooter1701]

Digs,

History has shown the more people see Kerry the less they like him. This is the reason new commercials will actually FEATURE edwards. Kerry will not be in them at all.

Its wierd but Kerry is trying to come in under the radar and have people vote for him as the Anti-Bush candidate, and not vote for him becaue they support him.
Bobboi, what percentage of Pro-Bush ads would you say contain "anti-kerry" material?

[jpn of Seattle]

(Early June 2004) Based on historical patterns, Bush's job approval rating is thus underperforming the pattern of presidents who have won re-election. In the broadest sense, Bush's job approval rating has generally been remarkably stable this year, averaging about 50% (which is a symbolic dividing line for an incumbent seeking re-election) since mid-January. The current downtick in his ratings puts him below the pattern of successful presidents. Having a rating below 50% (as is the case with his last four ratings) is not a good sign for an incumbent. If Bush wins this November, he would be the first president since Harry Truman to come from a below 50% rating to win re-election.
The fact that Bush has been behind the likely Democratic nominee, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, in several Gallup Poll re-election trial heat ballots this year, means that Bush's re-election probabilities are lower than those of his successful predecessors. None of the five presidents who won re-election were behind their eventual opponent in any trial heats after January in the year prior to their election. If Bush wins this year, he will become the first president to come from behind in election year spring polls to win. --Frank Newport, editor-in-chief of The Gallup poll

[jpn of Seattle]

History has shown the more people see Kerry the less they like him.

Which makes his regular reelection to the US Senate rather hard to explain, does it not?

[kramsret]

History has shown the more people see Kerry the less they like him.

Links to that "history" please.

I think you're confusing "your warped wishful thinking" with actual "history".

[thaanatos]

Not because of of the Democrat's ability to provide relentless "Character Assassinations" - which seem to be the only strength the GOP really has - but because this administration is THE absolute worst EVER in our history and you can only fool the majority of Americans for so long ....

raise your hand if you are able to recognize the hypocrisy inherent in this paragraph...... :rollin

[Atenhotep]

You just don't get it do you?

Over 11,000 civilians murdered. Over 800 American soldiers killed with thousands wounded (missing body parts) Terrorism has increased. America has alienated our allies and created more enemies across the globe.

You had four years to prove your Patriotism. You and every Bush Supporter failed that test MISERABLY.

[thaanatos]

I get 'it'.....I just don't 'get' you.....

by the way your civilian casualty figures are overstated by approximately 500 percent...

what you don't 'get' is that a choice had to be made.....a choice between a world with a future where Saddaam made the decisions about what life in the world would be like or whether a free people made the decisions about what life in the world would be like....

and those decisions impacted the US, and France, and Estonia and Sri Lanka and the Solomon Islands.....

the right choice was made....yes, lives were lost....but phenomenally few lives were lost....

has terrorism increased? We have no way of knowing what terrorism would have been like if there was no war in Iraq.....my bet is that Al Queda would not have said, "whoop, we brought down the twin towers, time to pack up and go home, our job is done"....

terrorists hate the US because of what we are....including everything from Wall Street to Washington to Hollywood....and we aren't like to change what we are because they hate us....and they aren't likely to stop hating us if we don't.....the war in Iraq created a focal point for terrorism, but it didn't create terrorism.....

as far as alienating our 'allies', bullshit.....Chiraq was gunning for a chance to 'up' his political status long before Iraq became an issue....the fact that he and his cronies were lining their pockets from Saddaam's slush fund just created the impetus....

now, this being a thread about US politics, lets throw some politics in here....Kerry as president is frightening.....he hasn't got the balls to do what is right, if France objects to it.....I don't want a president who bends over to Chiraq....

[Atenhotep]

by the way your civilian casualty figures are overstated by approximately 500 percent...

Oh really, where are getting your numbers. Provide the link please.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min: 11164 Max 13118

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press.htm

what you don't 'get' is that a choice had to be made.....a choice between a world with a future where Saddaam made the decisions about what life in the world would be like or whether a free people made the decisions about what life in the world would be like....

Wave your two dollar plastic flag on an overpass. We’re the most powerful nation on earth. Don’t give me that jingoistic crap of yours. It’s beneath both of us..

and those decisions impacted the US, and France, and Estonia and Sri Lanka and the Solomon Islands.....

And do you happen to know what the Muslim population of France is btw? Yes our actions impact the world and having the world on our side MIGHT have been a pretty nice thing.

the right choice was made....yes, lives were lost....but phenomenally few lives were lost....

Again, complete and utter bullshit. 11.000 murders civilians is phenomenally few lives? Is that how you sleep at night, by telling yourself that?

You call me a bigot because I don’t like Christians. Now try to stay with me here OK ... That makes you a “them” to my “Us” It’s not nice being a “Them” is it?

Makes you not like me when I think so little of you that I've reduced your humanity down to a "THEM."

Well, welcome to the world of the people that hate us.

has terrorism increased? We have no way of knowing what terrorism would have been like if there was no war in Iraq.....my bet is that Al Queda would not have said, "whoop, we brought down the twin towers, time to pack up and go home, our job is done"....

Terrorists would certainly been encouraged HOWEVER creating more of them is completely idiotic. We had priorities. We had a mission.
Bush fucked us all.

terrorists hate the US because of what we are....including everything from Wall Street to Washington to Hollywood....and we aren't like to change what we are because they hate us....and they aren't likely to stop hating us if we don't.....the war in Iraq created a focal point for terrorism, but it didn't create terrorism.....

:eyes

I really don't know how to reason with somebody that possesses no reason and repeats that "They hate ourt Freedom" crap.

PURE IGNORANCE thaanatos.

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him
You REALLY need to focus on that part of your sig line.

as far as alienating our 'allies', bullshit.....Chiraq was gunning for a chance to 'up' his political status long before Iraq became an issue....the fact that he and his cronies were lining their pockets from Saddaam's slush fund just created the impetus....

FRANCE is NOT separated by an Ocean and do not have the luxury of distance we have.

AGAIN:

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him...

PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH and prove me wrong about Christians ... if you can.


Which I doubt.

now, this being a thread about US politics, lets throw some politics in here....Kerry as president is frightening.....he hasn't got the balls to do what is right, if France objects to it.....I don't want a president who bends over to Chiraq....

It’s people like you that are responsible for 9-11. You cut off your nose to spite your face.

Again:

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him...

How dare you try to pretend you are tolerant and understanding of other people's needs while you so obviously don't give a shit about anyone but yourself - not realizing that the only person you're screwing over is yourself.

And what does the Bush Campaign do?

It spends all its time running character Assassination ads against Kerry.

It spends its time focused on denying rights to US citizens because they do not have “good Christian man/woman" sexual preferences while there is REAL troubles in the world.

It’s like those cops that spend their time catching jay-walkers while the bank robbers get away.

WORST ADMINISTRATION EVER

[thaanatos]

Oh really, where are getting your numbers. Provide the link please.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min: 11164 Max 13118

certainly, I have done it before, glad to do it again....

http://civilians.info/iraq/

your figures from iraqbodycount are admittedly compiled from 'guesstimates'....CIVIC Worldwide supplies names, ages, and cause of death for all the actual count

Wave your two dollar plastic flag on an overpass. We’re the most powerful nation on earth. Don’t give me that jingoistic crap of yours. It’s beneath both of us..
I am sorry if you feel that a realistic understanding of the world is beneath you....get over it.....

And do you happen to know what the Muslim population of France is btw? Yes our actions impact the world and having the world on our side MIGHT have been a pretty nice thing.
the difference between us, Aten, is that I happen to think what we did in Iraq will have positive consequences for the Muslims in France as well as the non-Muslims.....

Again, complete and utter bullshit. 11.000 murders civilians is phenomenally few lives? Is that how you sleep at night, by telling yourself that?

You call me a bigot because I don’t like Christians. Now try to stay with me here OK ... That makes you a “them” to my “Us” It’s not nice being a “Them” is it?

Makes you not like me when I think so little of you that I've reduced your humanity down to a "THEM."

Well, welcome to the world of the people that hate us.

2000, not 11,000, civilians who were killed in the war, not 'murdered' is phenomenally few.....just consider the difference between the reality and the speculation of iragbodycount relating to civilian casualties....

I call you a bigot not because you don't like Christians, but because you attribute all sorts of unrealistic bullshit to Christians because you don't like them.....I have been a Them all my life, I expect I always will be....

Terrorists would certainly been encouraged HOWEVER creating more of them is completely idiotic. We had priorities. We had a mission.

it was not doing what we had to do that created more terrorists, it was the lies that were spread about what we were doing that created more terrorists......lies like 11,000 dead civilians, lies like 'the US is doing it so it can steal Iraqi oil, lies like the crap I see posted on this and other boards every day......it wasn't Bush that created terrorists, it was people like you, spreading lies, simply because you can't tolerate the possibility of a Christian president....

I really don't know how to reason with somebody that possesses no reason and repeats that "They hate our Freedom" crap.

more bullshit.....I didn't say that hated us because of our 'freedom', you ignorant ass, I said they hated us because of who we are....in their eyes we are reflected by what they see in Washington and Wall Street and Hollywood....the same crap that the people who post to this board criticize every day....waste, political corruption, greed, and immorality.....and I don't know why you should object to debating someone with 'no reason' since you have the same characteristic yourself.....

FRANCE is NOT separated by an Ocean and do not have the luxury of distance we have.
neither do we, Aten.....neither do we

PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH and prove me wrong about Christians ... if you can.
its the only reason I bother talking to you, Aten....proving you wrong about Christianity....and I do it every day

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him.....How dare you try to pretend you are tolerant and understanding of other people's needs

you misunderstand the quote, Aten....it doesn't mean I need to agree with you when you say something stupid.....it means I need to communicate with you on a level that you understand....

It spends all its time running character Assassination ads against Kerry
and for a final passing retorte....you can't assassinate a suicide victim.....

[ninjalooter1701]

its the only reason I bother talking to you, Aten....proving you wrong about Christianity....and I do it every day
You have yet to do this once. Are you extending the metaphor of "six days and six nights" of creation, and assuming that they are millions of years?

You couldn't prove the time of day, let alone an observation about Christianity.

[sarmajor]

it means I need to communicate with you on a level that you understand....

That is why I do not argue with you thaan.

The words "simplistic", "jingoistic" and "ignorant crap" (for some strange reason) spring to mind while reading your post.

What a blessing it must be to live in your own dream world - safe from reality.

[ninjalooter1701]

[..previous quotes removed..]


Bobboi, what percentage of Pro-Bush ads would you say contain "anti-kerry" material?
I just thought I'd reply to this since it looks like Bobboi missed it.

[CheezieDanish]

Who's blue and who's red? :D

[Fredfredson]

Thaanatos

Quote:
Oh really, where are getting your numbers. Provide the link please.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min: 11164 Max 13118


certainly, I have done it before, glad to do it again....

http://civilians.info/iraq/

your figures from iraqbodycount are admittedly compiled from 'guesstimates'....CIVIC Worldwide supplies names, ages, and cause of death for all the actual count


Ummm

The Civilians.info site only covers the period of March 21 to July 31 2003, in addition it was compiled for BAGHDAD and the SOUTH of IRAQ only.

Their result is 2000 killed.

During this time period the IRAQ Body Count site records a minimum of 6066 and a maximum of 7777 for ALL of Iraq.

The numbers Aten references is the cumulative values to July 10th 2004.

A quick cross check between the two data sets indicates that there are many incidents reported in the press (Iraq Body Count) that occured in the NORTH of Iraq so would not have been included in the Civilians.info survey.

These two sources are NOT THAT DIFFERENT given the constraints that Raed Jarrar worked under for his survey.

Where the hell do you get a 500% overstatement value from?

F
:pooter

[thaanatos]

11000 divided by 2000

and I do not agree that your criticisms are valid.....iraqbodycount does not 'record' any deaths, it admits that its numbers are based upon their assumptions of how many 'must' have died.....they have never been accurate, despite the fact that they are quoted repeatedly here and elsewhere.....

the vast bulk of casualties would logically have been incurred in Baghdad, as that is where the bulk of the fighting was located....and casualties since July of 03 have been light compared to the initial days of the war....far more have been killed by so called 'freedom fighters' since July than from any actions of the coalition forces.....

[Fredfredson]

11000 divided by 2000

OK so you didn't notice the constraints on the Civilians.info site then?

The apparent 300% difference during this time period is not as big a difference as it appears given the constraints.

The discussion of the process on the Iraq Bodycount site is pretty clear on how they attempted to handle the uncertainties in the sources. If we apply the Civilians.info constraints to the data set from Iraq Body count, my "back of the envelope" estimate puts the discrepancy closer to a 1.5 overstatement.

F
:pooter

[ninjalooter1701]

11000 divided by 2000

and I do not agree that your criticisms are valid.....iraqbodycount does not 'record' any deaths, it admits that its numbers are based upon their assumptions of how many 'must' have died.....they have never been accurate, despite the fact that they are quoted repeatedly here and elsewhere.....

Results and totals are continually updated and made immediately available on this page and on various IBC counters which may be freely displayed on any website, where they will be automatically updated without further intervention. Casualty figures are derived solely from a comprehensive survey of online media reports. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least three members of the Iraq Body Count project team before

Once again, Thaanatos, you're dead wrong. Try reading the site before you make idiotic untruthful statements about it.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/background.htm#methods
You're wrong about this too. Don't you get tired of being wrong and having it continually proven? Have you no pride?

[thaanatos]

I love proving you wrong, Ninny.....any particular reason you edited out the first sentence of the paragraph you quoted? Did it make you feel uncomfortable?

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts.

nice touch, you dishonest slut.....

I also love the fact that iraqbodycount attributes to the coalition all deaths due to roadside bombings......

I think that lends an extra measure of credibility to their count......

[Diemos3211]

Because, y'know, Iraqis would be blowing up bombs on the side of the highway for fun if we weren't there...

[ninjalooter1701]

I love proving you wrong, Ninny.....any particular reason you edited out the first sentence of the paragraph you quoted? Did it make you feel uncomfortable?

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts.

nice touch, you dishonest slut.....

I also love the fact that iraqbodycount attributes to the coalition all deaths due to roadside bombings......

I think that lends an extra measure of credibility to their count......
No, it must have been a cut/paste mistake.

But, as for "proving wrong," your track record is along that of Lionel Hutz. You didn't prove neither:

1) Jack
2) Shit

Keep on digging, Thaany, better yet, make a new handle, your credibility is ZERO on "thaanatos."

[Atenhotep]

Um ... thaanatos .... you should actually USE (read them before you post) the links you supply to try to argue your positions.

Once again you are ... well .. here .. from the link you provided:

Iraq Body Count (http://www.iraqbodycount.org)
another civilian casualties survey using media reports

I mean gee .. isn't that odd that the site you supply as gospels includes a link to a site you ALSO claim is wrong and inflated.

Gee ... funny that....

All I see here is a Christian trying to explain away the murder of innocent people as if it's some type of "acceptable thing."

and I do not agree that your criticisms are valid.....iraqbodycount does not 'record' any deaths, it admits that its numbers are based upon their assumptions of how many 'must' have died.....they have never been accurate, despite the fact that they are quoted repeatedly here and elsewhere.....

Yeap ... that's all it is ....

Do you have a family, loved one's thaanatos?

Maybe you should realize that when all of the additional terrorists, terrorist sympathizers and chaos Bush has created result in a nuke turning one of city's to molten, radioactive slag, that the people in that city are merely "Collateral Damage."

I sure hope none of your loved one's are in that city.

You might have a stroke from the epiphany that hits you.

[Dave]

I mean gee .. isn't that odd that the site you supply as gospels includes a link to a site you ALSO vclaim is wrong and inflated.

Now that is funny :rofl

[Atenhotep]

thaanatos is like those little plastic air bubbles you pop to relieve stress. That's why I like him so much.


:D

[Atenhotep]

Because, y'know, Iraqis would be blowing up bombs on the side of the highway for fun if we weren't there...

I hope thaanatos didn't miss your post.

:lol

[jpn of Seattle]

http://www.freewayblogger.com/images/ipod_tn.jpg

[thaanatos]

Well, Aten..you just keep popping my 'air bubbles'....I will continue popping your 'arguments'....

yes, I have loved ones....and I will agree that all 'collateral damage' deaths suck, even one....but you don't stop dealing with those who threaten world peace because of one, or two thousand, or a fictional 11,000 collateral damage deaths....how many civilians died in WW2? How many during the American Revolution? Should we have refrained from those two wars?....

Because, y'know, Iraqis would be blowing up bombs on the side of the highway for fun if we weren't there...

no, they wouldn't have been blowing up bombs on the highway if we weren't there....the same folks would have been dragging them into one of the presidential palaces and offing them there, at their leisure, instead....

Boy, I sure hope Aten doesn't miss my post.....

By the way, I notice none of you have bothered to respond to my point that iraqbodycount's numbers are based on hearsay and inaccurate 'estimates' from media outlets rather than a name by name 'body count'....guess that must be dangerous territory, eh?

[Atenhotep]

By the way, I notice none of you have bothered to respond to my point that iraqbodycount's numbers are based on hearsay and inaccurate 'estimates' from media outlets rather than a name by name 'body count'....guess that must be dangerous territory, eh?

thaanatos, you really make me ill.

I'll repeat, the site you offer as gospel includes a link to the site you claim is false.

Dude, U R Dum

For one thing iraqbodycount gives a minimum / maximum range clearly indicating it's margin of error. The site also covers all of Iraq over the entire time period where your site CLEARLY states it only covers limited regions over a very short time period.

In addition we're talking about a region where names, phone numbers and favorite tv shows are not exactly the easiest data to collect. A lot of "nobodys" have been murdered.

You can use the minimum figures presented but jeesh, just like always, you just don't have a clue.

March onward Christian Soldier.

[Lord Plye Wood]

Digs,

History has shown the more people see Kerry the less they like him.

Its wierd but Kerry is trying to come in under the radar and have people vote for him as the Anti-Bush candidate, and not vote for him becaue they support him.

History will also show that the more people see Bush as President, the less likely they will be to vote for him AGAIN. War Presidents/Prime Ministers don't have a good track record at getting reelected. Korea was Truman's downfall. Churchill got tossed as soon as the war in Europe was over. LBJ lost his second shot at the Presidency because of Vietnam. Bush, Sr., blew a substantial popularity after Kuwait and lost to Clinton. Bush Jr. will suffer the same fate as his father, in my opinion. First time around, I voted for him. Never again. I voted Republican in every Presidential election since Nixon's win in 1968, but now I've reregistered Democrat after a 36 year abscence. It has more to do with his support of his home state of Texas and his brother's home state of Florida against my home state of California, that makes me vote for whatever Democrat is running against him. I'm not looking for a Messiah. I'm looking for a President who will support me and my home state. GW Bush is not that President.

[Atenhotep]

Spoken like a true gentleman Lord Plye Wood.

:cheers

[jpn of Seattle]

Now if we could only get you to move to a swing state...!

[thaanatos]

I'll repeat, the site you offer as gospel includes a link to the site you claim is false.

and I will repeat....the site I offer as 'gospel' lists the names and identity of the people who died....the site it links to and YOU quote as 'gospel' admits that its numbers are based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims.....

Onward anti-Christian liar.....

[ninjalooter1701]

I'll repeat, the site you offer as gospel includes a link to the site you claim is false.

and I will repeat....the site I offer as 'gospel' lists the names and identity of the people who died....the site it links to and YOU quote as 'gospel' admits that its numbers are based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims.....

Onward anti-Christian liar.....
Anti-christian liar...Christian liar, you're two peas in a pod. Except, of course, the anti-christian isn't a liar.

[Atenhotep]

[quote="thaanatos"]....the site it links to and YOU quote as 'gospel' admits that its numbers are based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims.....quote]

thaanatos, why don't you show us where the site says "its numbers are based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims....."

[thaanatos]

thaanatos, why don't you show us where the site says "its numbers are based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims....."

again? duplicate pasting is such a bore.....

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts.

further, though it no longer appears on it site, its earliest postings were accompanied by the disclaimer that because no one was able to accurately determine the actual casualties of 'Shock and Awe' they were compiled by an average of the estimates of those 'media sources'.....somehow that disclaimer has drifted from their pages as they became holy writ.....

[thaanatos]

getting back to the original topic....found this today and got chuckle.....

http://gadflyer.com/articles/images/150.gif

[Atenhotep]

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts. - thaanatos

Did you add the word "online" thaanatos?

Please show us exactly where your sentence came from. Please C&P the entire paragraph.

And then show us where the site says "its numbers are based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims."

Thanks.

[thaanatos]

no, I didn't add it.....and if you don't believe me when I paste a sentence, you have no reason to believe me if I paste a paragraph.....the link is available in this thread, check it out yourself, if you have doubts....

It is my position that a tally made of claims made on an internet web site is 'hearsay' (evidence taken from a secondary source)...and is not substantiated by first hand evidence, as is the data compiled by the website I cited....thus, if they admit they acquired their information from an internet web site they admit to derive from hearsay and unsubstantiated sources....

[ninjalooter1701]

no, I didn't add it.....and if you don't believe me when I paste a sentence, you have no reason to believe me if I paste a paragraph.....the link is available in this thread, check it out yourself, if you have doubts....

It is my position that a tally made of claims made on an internet web site is 'hearsay' (evidence taken from a secondary source)...and is not substantiated by first hand evidence, as is the data compiled by the website I cited....thus, if they admit they acquired their information from an internet web site they admit to derive from hearsay and unsubstantiated sources....
an INTERNET WEB SITE isn't something like what you read daily, such as "Rushlimbaugh.com" Let's see what sites they use...

You can go ahead and believe these to be hearsay, in your quiet desperation all you want, while the rest of us shake our heads at you, still...
2. Sources

Our sources include public domain newsgathering agencies with web access. A list of some core sources is given below. Further sources will be added provided they meet acceptable project standards (see below).

ABC - ABC News (USA)
AFP - Agence France-Presse
AP - Associated Press
AWST - Aviation Week and Space Technology
Al Jaz - Al Jazeera network
BBC - British Broadcasting Corporation
BG - Boston Globe
Balt. Sun - The Baltimore Sun
CT - Chicago Tribune
CO - Commondreams.org
CSM - Christian Science Monitor
DPA - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
FOX - Fox News
GUA - The Guardian (London)
HRW - Human Rights Watch
HT - Hindustan Times
ICRC - International Committ of the Red Cross
IND - The Independent (London)
IO - Intellnet.org
JT - Jordan Times
LAT - Los Angeles Times
MEN - Middle East Newsline
MEO - Middle East Online
MER - Middle East Report
MH - Miami Herald
NT - Nando Times
NYT - New York Times
Reuters - (includes Reuters Alertnet)
SABC - South African Broadcasting Corporation
SMH - Sydney Morning Herald
Sg.News - The Singapore News
Tel- The Telegraph (London)
Times - The Times (London)
TOI - Times of India
TS - Toronto Star
UPI - United Press International
WNN - World News Network
WP - Washington Post

For a source to be considered acceptable to this project it must comply with the following standards: (1) site updated at least daily; (2) all stories separately archived on the site, with a unique url (see Note 1 below); (3) source widely cited or referenced by other sources; (4) English Language site; (5) fully public (preferably free) web-access.


Such hearsay...

[ninjalooter1701]

no, I didn't add it.....and if you don't believe me when I paste a sentence, you have no reason to believe me if I paste a paragraph.....the link is available in this thread, check it out yourself, if you have doubts....

It is my position that a tally made of claims made on an internet web site is 'hearsay' (evidence taken from a secondary source)...and is not substantiated by first hand evidence, as is the data compiled by the website I cited....thus, if they admit they acquired their information from an internet web site they admit to derive from hearsay and unsubstantiated sources....
So, Tol, do you deliberately not post LINKS?

If I had known you wanted them, I would have posted them. Just do a Google search on the quotes and you should locate them. These statistics are, after all, not created from illusions--they are gleaned from facts that are available most everywhere.

[Atenhotep]

no, I didn't add it.....and if you don't believe me when I paste a sentence, you have no reason to believe me if I paste a paragraph.....the link is available in this thread, check it out yourself, if you have doubts....

It is my position that a tally made of claims made on an internet web site is 'hearsay' (evidence taken from a secondary source)...and is not substantiated by first hand evidence, as is the data compiled by the website I cited....thus, if they admit they acquired their information from an internet web site they admit to derive from hearsay and unsubstantiated sources....

THAT is a dodge thaanatos.

I ASKED YOU to PLEASE show us exactly where your sentence came from. Please C&P the entire paragraph. Not just your typical Christian deceptions, but to ACTUALLY provide the entire sentence, and paragraph if you would.

You can support your claims can you not?

[thaanatos]

Methodology:

Overview
Sources
Data Extraction
Data Storage
Publication of data (including conditions of use)
Limitations



1. Overview

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least two members of the Iraq Body Count project team in addition to the original compiler before publication.

as usual, Aten....when you accuse me of being a liar, you end up looking like an ass.....I would expect that one day you would realize that......\

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/background.htm#methods

[ninjalooter1701]

Yes, Thaanatos, now show us reasonably how those methods are HEARSAY, as you characterize them....you know, non-credible...

[Atenhotep]

Methodology:

Overview
Sources
Data Extraction
Data Storage
Publication of data (including conditions of use)
Limitations



1. Overview

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least two members of the Iraq Body Count project team in addition to the original compiler before publication.

as usual, Aten....when you accuse me of being a liar, you end up looking like an ass.....I would expect that one day you would realize that......\

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/background.htm#methods

2. Sources

Our sources include public domain newsgathering agencies with web access. A list of some core sources is given below. Further sources will be added provided they meet acceptable project standards (see below).

ABC - ABC News (USA)
AFP - Agence France-Presse
AP - Associated Press
AWST - Aviation Week and Space Technology
Al Jaz - Al Jazeera network
BBC - British Broadcasting Corporation
BG - Boston Globe
Balt. Sun - The Baltimore Sun
CT - Chicago Tribune
CO - Commondreams.org
CSM - Christian Science Monitor
DPA - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
FOX - Fox News
GUA - The Guardian (London)
HRW - Human Rights Watch
HT - Hindustan Times
ICRC - International Committ of the Red Cross
IND - The Independent (London)
IO - Intellnet.org
JT - Jordan Times
LAT - Los Angeles Times
MEN - Middle East Newsline
MEO - Middle East Online
MER - Middle East Report
MH - Miami Herald
NT - Nando Times
NYT - New York Times
Reuters - (includes Reuters Alertnet)
SABC - South African Broadcasting Corporation
SMH - Sydney Morning Herald
Sg.News - The Singapore News
Tel- The Telegraph (London)
Times - The Times (London)
TOI - Times of India
TS - Toronto Star
UPI - United Press International
WNN - World News Network
WP - Washington Post

For a source to be considered acceptable to this project it must comply with the following standards: (1) site updated at least daily; (2) all stories separately archived on the site, with a unique url (see Note 1 below); (3) source widely cited or referenced by other sources; (4) English Language site; (5) fully public (preferably free) web-access.

thaanatos, you were saying?

[thaanatos]

thaanatos, you were saying?
everything I said.....(was there some point to repeating what Ninnypoo just posted?

HEARSAY
second hand information....not verified.....gleaned from what a variety of web sites claimed (including our friends Al Jazeera)...you know, non-credible...

[Atenhotep]

:eyes

U R dum

[thaanatos]

and U R boringly repetitive.....

[Atenhotep]

The web site you provided covers a limited region over a very short period of time.

Your site is admittedly completely inaccurate. It doesn't amount to anything other than another way for a "good Christian" to stick their head in the sand and try to rationalize the murders of over TEN THOUSAND civilians.

[thaanatos]

fuckin bigot and fuckin liar.....

[ninjalooter1701]

fuckin bigot and fuckin liar.....
I see, Thaanatos, that you've finally accomplished part of your sig:Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him

[Atenhotep]

I don't mind thaanatos' response.

It translates to: "Oooops ... you got me! The site I (thaanatos) provided is completely inaccurate and yet I've been defending because when people have dark skin and are not Christian I really don't care if they die or not."

Yeap, thaanatos, those darn Iraqis were just too stupid to be born as light skinned Christian Americans.

[ninjalooter1701]

Isn't it funny how the other Christians are saying that they don't think that Thaanatos isn't acting like a Christian? It's almost as if they condone his behavior.

[Atenhotep]

Not necessarily true Ninja.

I personally don't like Christians but .... ?

I know toeliver and Barkley are just as much the racist freaks as thaanatos but I wouldn't assume others are.

Anyway, I'll wait for thaany to tell me what I was lying about since his site is so admittedly inaccurate.

[thaanatos]

It translates to: "Oooops ... you got me! The site I (thaanatos) provided is completely inaccurate and yet I've been defending because when people have dark skin and are not Christian I really don't care if they die or not."


no Aten, it translates to frustration over idiots who will continue to deny the truth when they get slapped in the face with it.....

you are a bigot when you throw Christianity into an argument as if it were a tool that you were competent to weild....and you are a liar when you say 1) that the coalition forces 'murdered' over ten thousand Iraqi civilians.....

you say 'my' site is completely inaccurate....yet it is a site put together by an organization that is hardly 'conservative' or pro-coalition.....and it is a site that gives the names of those who died.....

you claim accuracy of iraqbodycount in a typical mindless librull faith that since the liberal media reports it, it must be true....and you ignore the fact that they misrepresent all deaths in Iraq as victims of coalition actions.....

and you mirror that lie.....

a person dies in a roadside bombing.....coalition's fault
a police station is attacked....coalition's fault


here is the truth, Aten.....some of those people were in fact murdered....they were murdered by those you would label 'freedom fighters'....of course, they only attack collaberators, like that busfull of Iraqi children on their way to school back in April.....

of course you don't care about that, they are all victims of the coalition, right?....

at least your web site thinks so, because they are on the list of the 11,000 'murdered' by the coalition......

k120 24 Apr 2004 - Haswa, near Iskandariya bus carrying 21 roadside bomb 13 14 Tel 25 Apr
AFP 26 Apr
AP 25 Apr

So, Aten .....I am sick and tired of your bigoted, lying ways.....you are wrong, you have been proved wrong.....oh, I know you will bluster your fucking way out of it, by changing the subject or just running away from it, or simply ignoring it.....but its time that you and your puppy knock the shit out of your brains and begin to think.....

[Atenhotep]

Now we're getting someplace..

no Aten, it translates to frustration over idiots who will continue to deny the truth when they get slapped in the face with it.....

Time and time again thaany that would be you alone.

you are a bigot when you throw Christianity into an argument as if it were a tool that you were competent to weild....

You're a Christian right? You're constantly trying to rationalize the murder of others. What the confusion you're having? Certainly nobody else is confused by the obvious racist positions you take.

and you are a liar when you say 1) that the coalition forces 'murdered' over ten thousand Iraqi civilians.....

GEORGE W. BUSH is RESPONSIBLE for the MURDER of OVER TEN THOUSAND CIVILIANS and nearly ONE THOUSAND AMERICAN SOLDIERS.

Or would those people have all been killed had America not illegally invaded Iraq to begin with? All of his "justifications" have been debunked a LOOOONG time ago.

ALL OF THEM thaanatos.

You seriously have a problem.

you say 'my' site is completely inaccurate....yet it is a site put together by an organization that is hardly 'conservative' or pro-coalition.....and it is a site that gives the names of those who died.....

So far YOU are the ONLY person that has been so stupid as to stand behind your site. It covers a LIMITED AREA and a LIMITED DURATION.

IT IS COMPLETELY INACCURATE yet you continue to make a complete ass out of yourself for all to see by defending it.

you claim accuracy of iraqbodycount in a typical mindless librull faith that since the liberal media reports it, it must be true....and you ignore the fact that they misrepresent all deaths in Iraq as victims of coalition actions.....

and you mirror that lie.....

a person dies in a roadside bombing.....coalition's fault
a police station is attacked....coalition's fault

Um ... yeah .. you see we INVADED their country.


here is the truth, Aten.....some of those people were in fact murdered....they were murdered by those you would label 'freedom fighters'....of course, they only attack collaberators, like that busfull of Iraqi children on their way to school back in April.....

of course you don't care about that, they are all victims of the coalition, right?....

at least your web site thinks so, because they are on the list of the 11,000 'murdered' by the coalition......

k120 24 Apr 2004 - Haswa, near Iskandariya bus carrying 21 roadside bomb 13 14 Tel 25 Apr
AFP 26 Apr
AP 25 Apr

Yeah ... because those people would not have been murdered if Bush stayed the fuck out of their affairs.

So, Aten .....I am sick and tired of your bigoted, lying ways.....you are wrong, you have been proved wrong.....oh, I know you will bluster your fucking way out of it, by changing the subject or just running away from it, or simply ignoring it.....but its time that you and your puppy knock the shit out of your brains and begin to think.....

Bluster my what?

Not too long ago you kept claiming I hadn't answered your questions then even after spoonfeeding you the fucking links to prove you wrong again and again you just ran off like the coward you are.

Do I need to pull up that thread where you spent SEVEN PAGES avoiding a simple question which you STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED? (Which denomination is the right one?) You and toeliver couldn't get far enough away from that one.

thaanatos, you're a good example of why Christians appear so evil to me.

You, Barkley, and toeliver are as sick, racist, and evil as they come.

Innocent people have been murdered and all you can do is make excuses.

It takes a pretty fucked up person to be able to do what you do thaanatos and still be able to sleep at night.

[thaanatos]

because those people would not have been murdered if Bush stayed the fuck out of their affairs
bullshit....they would have been pulled off the street by the same folks killing them now and murdered in the seclusion of one of Saddam's palaces.....

I have laid it all out for you, Aten....what I have posted to this thread is correct.....

you will continue to lie about the murder of 10,000 even though the fact it is a lie has been shown to you....that is why I do not listen to anything you post....

[ninjalooter1701]

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

[Atenhotep]

This is the common, ongoing problem with thaany. If you go back to page three you'll see thaany was already losing this "discussion" but he immediately shifted focus elsewhere (to Ninja)

The Civilians.info site only covers the period of March 21 to July 31 2003, in addition it was compiled for BAGHDAD and the SOUTH of IRAQ only.

Their result is 2000 killed.

During this time period the IRAQ Body Count site records a minimum of 6066 and a maximum of 7777 for ALL of Iraq.

The numbers Aten references is the cumulative values to July 10th 2004.

A quick cross check between the two data sets indicates that there are many incidents reported in the press (Iraq Body Count) that occured in the NORTH of Iraq so would not have been included in the Civilians.info survey.

These two sources are NOT THAT DIFFERENT given the constraints that Raed Jarrar worked under for his survey. - Fred

thaany, you need to get well.

[thaanatos]

read your own sources, Aten.....the deaths that follow that initial period of the war are predominantly deaths attributed by iraqbodycount to the coalition, despite the fact they were caused by your 'freedom fighters'......

stop spreading the lies.....

[Atenhotep]

So that's how you lose discussions. Typical Bushitie. Change subject. Blame someone else. Never take responsibility.

Well, golly shucks thaany, I'm so sorry that not everyone in the Middle East can be as (un) informed as you and watch FOX. Gosh if only they could all watch FOX everything would be just fine.

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

Whatever a person is like, I try to find common ground with him so that he will let me tell him about Christ and let Christ save him....
That is why I do not listen to anything you post....

I was banned for doing this.. please save yourself from the same and not spam the boards.

[thaanatos]

So that's how you lose discussions. Typical Bushitie. Change subject. Blame someone else. Never take responsibility.

Well, golly shucks thaany, I'm so sorry that not everyone in the Middle East can be as (un) informed as you and watch FOX. Gosh if only they could all watch FOX everything would be just fine.

same subject all along, Aten....the credibility of your claim that 11,000 civilians were murdered.....

and the information I presented to discredit your site didn't come from Fox, it came from a decidedly UN-conservative web site that went to the trouble of providing the names of the victims.....something the site you choose to 'uninform' you is unable to do....

[Atenhotep]

Um ... thaany ... yes .. the people listed on your site are all dead ... Nobody is arguing that ... BUT there are a whole lot more dead as well .. YOU KNOW from BEYOND the region and time period your site so narrowly confines itself to.

[thaanatos]

no, I DON'T know there are a 'whole lot' more dead and neither do you......the bulk of the fighting happened in the area of Baghdad....the bulk of the bombing occurred in the initial stage of the war.....there is no reason to expect there were losses elsewhere that were five times greater than the losses in Baghdad.....the press reports from the early days were flabbergasted when the casualties they had predicted didn't occur.....yet they generated numbers to bolster their claims.....now that there has been time to actually identify the losses, the truth does not bear out their claims.....

[Atenhotep]

Sure thaany .. sure .. now if you could only get a plane trip to Iraq maybe you could try to convince all the grave diggers of your story too.

[ninjalooter1701]

Sure thaany .. sure .. now if you could only get a plane trip to Iraq maybe you could try to convince all the grave diggers of your story too.
He can't get on a plane.

[thaanatos]

pair o'dumbfucks.....matched set...... :rollin




tell you what, Aten....give me the names......8000 people without names are dead......give me names.......and I would say there is a real good chance they don't have graves either....you don't have to bury imaginary dead.....

[Atenhotep]

thaany, you'll get exactly what's coming to people like you in the end.

[thaanatos]

thaany, you'll get exactly what's coming to people like you in the end.
who me?.....but I don't really deserve all this......you are too kind......thank you very much......I am humbled by the honor.......please, no more standing ovations.......thank you ........thank you.......

[Atenhotep]

Are you trying to get the last word in? I really do believe you are evil thaanatos. Of course you don't see yourself that way. Most evil people don't. I do believe that your racist evil will catch up with you in the end.

[thaanatos]

I believe this is the third time I have been called a rascist in the last week by someone on this board.....I would appreciate it if one of you would direct me to the comments that I have made which led you to this erroneous conclusion.....and Aten, I don't need the 'last' word....I stick to the 'best' word....

[Atenhotep]

OK, a civil discussion.

A racist.

How do you feel about "Collateral Damage?"

[thaanatos]

How do you feel about "Collateral Damage?
for one thing, I feel it has nothing to do with race.....

[Atenhotep]

for one thing, I feel it has nothing to do with race.....

It sure does. When it's "them" it's called "Collateral Damage" but when it's "us" it's called murder.

[thaanatos]

1) the premise that if it is 'them' it is collateral damage and if it is 'us' it is murder.....is an incorrect premise....

2) them/us is not a depiction of rascism.....many of the 'them's and 'us's are of the same race......

[ninjalooter1701]

I believe this is the third time I have been called a rascist in the last week by someone on this board.....I would appreciate it if one of you would direct me to the comments that I have made which led you to this erroneous conclusion.....and Aten, I don't need the 'last' word....I stick to the 'best' word....
And once you get the best word, do you find what you have in common and let Christ save him?