Bush's Military Records "Inadvertently Destroyed"

[jpn of Seattle]

Pentagon Say Bush Records of Service Were Destroyed
By RALPH BLUMENTHAL

Published: July 9, 2004

HOUSTON, July 8 - Military records that could help establish President Bush's whereabouts during his disputed service in the Texas Air National Guard more than 30 years ago have been inadvertently destroyed, according to the Pentagon.

It said the payroll records of "numerous service members," including former First Lt. Bush, had been ruined in 1996 and 1997 by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm. No back-up paper copies could be found, it added in notices dated June 25.

The destroyed records cover three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Mr. Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question.

The disclosure appeared to catch some experts, both pro-Bush and con, by surprise. Even the retired lieutenant colonel who studied Mr. Bush's records for the White House, Albert C. Lloyd of Austin, said it came as news to him.

The loss was announced by the Defense Department's Office of Freedom of Information and Security Review in letters to The New York Times and other news organizations that for nearly half a year have sought Mr. Bush's complete service file under the open-records law.

There was no mention of the loss, for example, when White House officials released hundreds of pages of the President's military records last February in an effort to stem Democratic accusations that he was "AWOL" for a time during his commitment to fly at home in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.

Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director who has said that the released records confirmed the president's fulfillment of his National Guard commitment, did not return two calls for a response.

[toolman846]

You guys still got that bridge for sale?

:lol

You have to remember - these are the same bunch of guys who were featured on the nightly news last night, as giving that fako-bako a $66 million Navy contract, to teach security tactics to Navy personnel. Hastily withdrawn, of course, after the publicity.

Who knows, it might ACTUALLY have happened the way they said.....














IN A PIG'S ASS!!! :rofl

[toolman846]

Of course, no records, no pension. Right? Looks like he'll have to go see his VFW In-Service Officer.

What a hoot! Unbelievable. And I mean that literally. :lol

[Fredfredson]

Good catch JPN!

Unbelievable.

Here's the link if anybodies interested:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/09/politics/campaign/09records.html

F
:pooter

[jpn of Seattle]

Curious, isn't it, how the "liberal media" isn't splashing this story all over the front pages?

[toolman846]

Looks like Bush's records have now also gone "awol". :lol

[kramsret]

1996 1997?

Isnt that about the time that Karl Rove decided that Chimpy will run for president??

God, what a coincidence!

[The Vanisher]

A very noteworthy turn of events. How many other records are missing? Where in the pentagon were these records stored? Is there any way a Republican stooge could have destroyed these records on purpose before the Republican primaries got started?

[ninjalooter1701]

There was no mention of the loss, for example, when White House officials released hundreds of pages of the President's military records last February in an effort to stem Democratic accusations that he was "AWOL" for a time during his commitment to fly at home in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.

Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director who has said that the released records confirmed the president's fulfillment of his National Guard commitment, did not return two calls for a response.
PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL! PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL! PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL! PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL! PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL! PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL! PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL! PAGING DOCTOR SPIN, DOCTOR SPIN, TO THE PRESS HALL!

[sir digalot]

ooops another anderson consulting group style screw up...

where is the shredder??? NO NO DON'T SHRED THOSE!!! ... ooops too late.. oh well.... ;)

[Atenhotep]

ooops!

Oh come on, you're all acting like this was some type of conspiracy .. like how all of his driving records from Texas disappeared too ... these things just happen.

There's no conspiracy here .. except for the Liberal Media Conspiracy of course .. now there's a conspiracy!

[kramsret]

It's getting to the point where we need to either build jails or dig pits to house any son of a bitch America-hating traitor who can still apologize for this bastard George W.

[GunnyL]

Just to to inject a little reality into the fray:

One of THE big fears in the military during the pre-online days was having you records lost. Anyone with an IQ above kramsret's made sure they had a personal copy. I damned-sure did, everytime one new word got entered. Even after that, my pay record was lost once.

Your records not making to St Louis once you retired or got out was common occurence. I have a complete photocopy of mine to this day. IF he'd admit it, the originator of this thread probably has a copy of his.

[goddesscon]

I thought jpn was a woman :eek Or was gunny referring to the Author of the article...
:dunno
The reason the records are lost are because they were lost on purpose...

[alnusur]

[quote="sir digalot"]ooops another anderson consulting group style screw up...
quote]

You mean Arthur Anders* . It is not the same thing as Consulting ...

[sinterest]

One of THE big fears in the military during the pre-online days was having you records lost. Anyone with an IQ above kramsret's made sure they had a personal copy. I damned-sure did, everytime one new word got entered. Even after that, my pay record was lost once.

???? are you saying that Bush has a full copy he should share with us???

[ThaBigCheese]

Hey, I believe that Bush is a lying sack of shit.

But I do have to agree with Gunny. I have a copy of all of my military records, because they will and do lose stuff regularly.....If you don't have a copy of your military records....get them....NOW!!!

[GunnyL]

I thought jpn was a woman Or was gunny referring to the Author of the article...

"Gunny" was referring to jpn seattle who, male or female, is a retired US Navy Commander.

I really never considered seattle's gender, and it has never come up that I know of. Agree or disagree, I've always taken seattle's posts on merit.

[kramsret]

GunnyL makes good points. Which is a welcomed change.

But it just ADDS to the reality here: Bush's records exist. They're just covering them up.

I know it. Bush knows it. Even reich wing reality challenged Bush apologists know it.

[GunnyL]

???? are you saying that Bush has a full copy he should share with us???

What I really want to know sinterest, is if YOU made a copy of YOUR record? I understand they were chiselled on stone tablets back in the day! :lol

I don't know whther or not Bush has a copy of his record, and talk about taking things out of context. My statement concerns miltitary records and the frequency with whichthey were lost prior to the mid-80s when they started computerizing them.

Incidentally, medical records are not kept online, nor on computer. If you lose your medicla record, you STILL get ALL those shots! :moon

[kramsret]

Having exited the military not too long ago, I can attest to what Gunny says.

Only a complete fool would NOT make a complete copy of military personnel and medical records on the way out of the military.


Come to think of it, that could be why Bush didn't.

[GunnyL]

They didn't have copiers in widespread use when Bush left the Guard. Matter of fact, the Guard probably STILL doesn't have any functioning copiers! :lol

[kramsret]

Or Bush didn't know how to use it.

Actually, I wonder how many disgraced military members--those discharged dishonorably, or with a Big Chicken Dinner, what have you--keep copies of their military records. Why keep copies of something that you're rightfully ashamed of, and that isn't going to help you in the future?

THAT's more like the REAL reason that Bush wouldn't have copies.

[lily]

Only a complete fool would NOT make a complete copy of military personnel and medical records on the way out of the military.


Come to think of it, that could be why Bush didn't.



:rollin :rollin :rofl :rofl :rollin :rollin

You were reading my mind!!!

[sinterest]

I understand they were chiselled on stone tablets back in the day!

AS YOU WERE BOOT!

[jpn of Seattle]

One of THE big fears in the military during the pre-online days was having you records lost. Anyone with an IQ above kramsret's made sure they had a personal copy. I damned-sure did, everytime one new word got entered. Even after that, my pay record was lost once.

I'm a proud member of the male gender by the way.
I'm curious why someone would think I'm not...?
Anyway, I have my DD214 statement of years, months, and days served as an active duty member of the Navy copied in multiple places and registered and on file at the county courthouse. In addition, I also have copies of every annual points total that I earned while in the Reserves. Finally, I have multiple copies of my separation document certifying to my having retired from the reserves with such-and-such a rank and such-and-such point total. Since it is used to calculate my retirement when I turn 60, and since I am not a multimillionaire like Bush, I am sure that these documents mean far more to me than they do to junior.
I wouldn't be surprised if the alcoholic, drug-using waste-o Bush Jr. lost his documents, since responsible behavior was just not his schtick until several decades later.
I mean, if he ever got into trouble, there was big daddy there to bail him out.
Literally, in the case of his drunk driving offense, and metaphorically in the case of his business failures that somehow managed to make him rich.

[goddesscon]

Sorry jpn.... :boob I was a boob...ok..I have boobs too...which shows I am a female...;)

I do apologise for assuming...

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

But, some men have boobs too... so your boobs, while less hairy (I think?), do not confirm you as a female.

[goddesscon]

No it doesn't...however, my picture IS in the members gallery.
Perhaps it is time to request member photos again eh???



The little boobie shaking thingy wasn't good enough???

:boob

:lol

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

Wow... didn't know there was a member's gallery.

My mental image of some of you has been forever shattered.

I had no idea Fred looked like Jesus!

The only one I wish I hadn't seen... was Toolman.

[Jayne B]

Yeah... my dad still has all his records, and he's been collecting his pension for longer than he was in. And I knew an old guy of 94, who until the day he died had every piece of paper relating to his service... in WW1 :lol

Keeping a paper trail is a survival skill in the military.... at least, it is for people who suspect they'll ever face a payroll or pension screwup. I don't know any ex-military trust-fund babies, but I expect they don't care as much about that $236.75/mo.

[jpn of Seattle]

Member's gallery? Where? I looked and can't find it.

[GunnyL]

Seattle ..

The very first page beneath P&CA forum.

I am curious as to why people would post their photos on the internet. I must say, some of them DO burst the old bubble as far a previous mental images go. :lol

ESPECIALLY Fred!!! :lol

[goddesscon]

:bleh
I sent a nice picture to the gallery....

So...My appearance is disappointing? :lol
I didn't say it had to be a REAL picture..
I like fred's and his lady's...I agree we need a better shot of toolman...
Ok I digress...I am spoiling the thread...

Seems to me MOST ex military personelle were SMART enough to retain thier records...just shows Dubya had something to hide and never thought he'd have to rely on military retirement pay...why should he??? He has enough dosh to live to a ripe old age...
It's a poor excuse...but they'll let him slide on it...

[Anonymous Idiot Savant]

So...My appearance is disappointing? :lol

Hey nobody is naming names... well ok, I did...

As such I'll clairify I bit on Toolman.

Have you seen one of Conan O'Brian's "If they made it" skits?

Well, Toolman looks like the love child of two of the bigger dicks I know... which is unfortunite since I think he's a pretty decent guy.

Oh and Miss Digs, where can I find a cat like yours, or is it a breed exclusive to Europe?

[sinterest]

since responsible behavior was just not his schtick until several decades later.
When will it happen?

[GunnyL]

just shows Dubya had something to hide and never thought he'd have to rely on military retirement pay...why should he??? He has enough dosh to live to a ripe old age...
It's a poor excuse...but they'll let him slide on it...

Goddess ...

Sorta' kinda.' My military record represents twenty years of my life, not just one hitch. Technically, it IS my resume. The more time invested, the more priority is given to ensuring one has a copy of their record.

You are correct since Bush does not receive militay benefits nor pay, nor does he need them, it would not be as important an issue with him.

While I think it would be interesting to come up with a copy of Bush's record, I personally would be big-time pissed-as-Hell if my service record was posted all over the web, television and/or newspapers. I would also be just as interested in seeing a true accounting of what Kerry actually did in 'Nam.

It is my personal opinion that NEITHER would have anything to brag about. Bush used the Guard to slip the draft; which, isn't exactly the brave, he-man thing to do but hardly sets precedent. And Kerry's short little stint smells like something just isn't quite right.

[goddesscon]

I can understand your view Gunny...about your records being made public..
However, both of these men are running for the highest office in the nation...
which means thier pasts are open for extreme scrutiny...(sp?)...
Sorry just woke up and my coffee has not kicked in yet...

We ALL have skeletons in our past...and when you speak of the military record being part of a resume that does speak volumes about how much should be available for all to see...
I would fully expect my past to have a fine toothed combing...

Why is either of thier military records important??? It's all water under the bridge right???
Not really... it shows the character... the expierience... it shows the metal of tha man... so it should be acceptable for the public to bitch and moan until the evidence is presented.. but this is only my opinion...

[CheezieDanish]

http://www.passionfish.com/Fark/lyin.jpg

[CheezieDanish]

For Aten.

[goddesscon]

Nice one Madam Cheeeeeeeezzzziiie

Why is either of thier military records important??? It's all water under the bridge right???
Not really... it shows the character... the expierience... it shows the metal of tha man... so it should be acceptable for the public to bitch and moan until the evidence is presented.. but this is only my opinion...

I'm not sure I would call it "water under the bridge," but I guess that's as good a label as any.

I don't agree that it is okay to bitch and moan until evidence is presented, if the evidence doesn't exist. Everything else is speculation and leads to a WHOLE BUNCH of twisted-truths and outright lies spun as propaganda by both sides.

I'm as eager to see the truth as anyone; however, it's getting harder and harder to find it the closer we get to November. And the people guilty of posting the most spin will tell you in a second they consider themselves "moderate" :lol .

I personally think that what either candidate did in the late 60s-early 70s isn't indicative of much. We lived in an entirely different world then. I would most certainly hate to be judged based on my actions from 18-21. I'm a completely different person than I was then.

How long do we hold one accountable for past indiscretions?

[goddesscon]

Gunny...


How long do we hold one accountable for past indiscretions

Depends on what these indiscretions were/are...
When Henry Hyde was talking about his youthful indiscretions...ie: his cheating on his wife with a mistress for 15 years..and he was in his 40's..well...how old is Youthful??? :lol...
Same as bush saying his DUI was a youthful indiscretion ...at the age of 30+...
Does this mean they do not grow up until they are in thier 60's???
I dunno... still you hit the nail on the head when you said your military record is your resume... that really says it all....

[GunnyL]

Depends on what these indiscretions were/are...

I have no problem with that, but it does make it subjective depending on one's viewpoint.

While a service record may be a "resume" for someone who was in for 20 years, I view it as nothing more than a snapshot for those who spent 2-4 years in. It takes your first enlistment to figure out you really don't know anything!

And if their service records are used as qualifiers for the Presidency of the US, I reject them BOTH, and I want some new candidates to look at! ;)