Suicide

[Larkin]

This is hardly a political question, more of a philosophical one. However I am going to post it anyway.

What are people's views on suicide ? Is it ok ? What about for the terminally ill ?

[Fredfredson]

You're right this might be better in General Chat.

I'll try moving it.

Hopefully it works :/

F
:pooter

[cwinton]

This is hardly a political question, more of a philosophical one. However I am going to post it anyway.

What are people's views on suicide ? Is it ok ? What about for the terminally ill ?

The terminally ill generally wait until there is no hope of living with any type of dignity. At which point, it becomes euthenasia. It's a dangerous road to go down. Yes, we put our pets to 'sleep' for supposed 'humanitarian reasons' so their suffering is ended. However, when we start putting people 'to sleep,' there will grow a 'List' of those deemed 'undesirable' and therefore 'worthy' of being 'put to sleep.' Next thing we know, we have Soylent Green Factories.

As far as assisted-suicide for the terminally ill, I support it. However, once the patient is no longer able to push the plunger, or whatever, then it becomes 'euthenasia.' For this reason, if the person didn't do it when they were capable, I could not do it to them. And, if they were capable of 'begging' for it ... then, I'd think they could find a means of 'pushing a button' or whatever (in most cases) ... either using their jaws, or rolling their head, or whathaveyou.

(I put 'in most cases' in parenthesis because a quadraplegic, obviously, would only be able to use their mouths ... and would indeed, require some form of 'assistance.').

It's about Quality Of Life.

Now, when it comes to personal suicide ... I have my own views on that as well. It could easily be argued that suicide is the MOST selfish act a person can perform, because, from that point forward, they have denied others the opportunity to 'enjoy' their company forever more. But what if no one 'enjoys' their company?

What if the suicidal truly feels they have absolutely nothing to offer anybody or anything?

Liberty and Freedom are about having the opportunities to make choices for one's self. Including when and how one dies. I support that.

That said ... a teenager that feels 'suicidal' because he/she didn't get a date for Saturday night ... well, most likely there are many other issues involved and some form of psychological intervention SHOULD be the obligation of any/all whom are aware of the situation. But of what type? What type of 'intervention?'

Taking someone from their home against their will and forcing them into a hospital or institution is NOT helpful ... the individual must be carefully communicated with about what options are available and why and how these various 'things' will benefit him/her. Then, ultimately, the suicidal must make the determination.

Exceptions: there are always those pesky exceptions. Suicide must always be delt with on a case-by-case basis. Somebody standing on a window ledge or bridge for hours and hours and hours until they are NOTICED ... are possibly just looking to get NOTICED.

People who really want to die ... find a way. Period. It's just a matter of time.

[Fredfredson]

Cool it worked.

Now where were we...

Not an easy subject to discuss there Larkin.

WRT Suicide I have no problem with it in cases of terminal illness.

It's important that the person have the means to end their lives in a dignified and safe way. A switch to the life support or something.

Amazingly, things I've read have indicated that when the means of oblivion is readily to hand the event is postponed, sometimes until the natural outcome has occured on it's own. It is a matter of control.

For an otherwise healthy person to contemplate suicide is in my opinion a cry for help, that we must always respond to with compassion and INFORMATION.

I have had to try to talk a young person out of suicide and it was very frustrating and frightening at the same time. The steely reasoned calm was what I couldn't fathom. My intellectual mind tried all kinds of reasoned calls for "looking on the bright side", "look at all you have to live for" and other such trite crap. My emotional self felt like beating the snot out of the bastard for being so stupid :/. My heart told me to find help so we called his friends, et voila, situation solved apparently, whew!

So I would have to say that for healthy people suicide is wrong (wasteful and stupid) and a cry for help, for the terminally ill it is a way to grant them the dignity of a safe and reasoned end. A grant I would hope others would offer me in similar circumstances.

F
:pooter

[Larkin]

Basically I asked this question because I have a very radical pov on this type of topic and was curious to see what others thought.

. Somebody standing on a window ledge or bridge for hours and hours and hours until they are NOTICED ... are possibly just looking to get NOTICED.

I've found that a lot of potential suiciders merely want/need attention. This however is only from personal experience and the people I knew in HS who tried to commit suicde or slashed their wrists.

I definitely support assisted suicide for the terminally ill however only at their request.

For an otherwise healthy person to contemplate suicide is in my opinion a cry for help, that we must always respond to with compassion and INFORMATION.

I don't agree with this in all cases. I do agree that most people feel this way, but what about those who are simply extremely unhappy ?

Assume the following premises are true for a moment:

1) There is no God or higher being.

2) Life is essentially meaningless( in an objective higher truth kind of sense).

3) You as a person are unhappy much more of the time than you are happy.

4) You see no reason to believe your situation will change.

If all of those are true, then what is the point of living ?

If one assumes merely that premises 1 and 2 are true, then it seems that for life to have meaning it needs to be a purely subjective meaning. If someone does not have that, then their life is meaningless. If one does not have the subjective meaning then it turns to merely enjoyment of life. If one does not enjoy life, then what is the point ?

Of course suicide is selfish, but aren't all acts if you really examine them, selfish ?

All of that being said I've had friends who have contemplated suicide and it scares the shit out of me. It hasn't happened for a while, but if one of my friends came up to me and said they were thinking of committing suicide, would I really tell them "well you should if so and so are true" ? No, almost certaintly not. I would do everything in my power to convince them otherwise.

I find it difficult to universally condemn suicide because I think that it is possible that life just isn't worth living. I see nothing wrong with that, and I see it as a personal choice. If it is well-reasoned, well-thought out, etc etc, I see no reason that I should have the power to keep the person alive, if their true wish is to die.

[Fredfredson]

If it is well-reasoned, well-thought out, etc etc, I see no reason that I should have the power to keep the person alive, if their true wish is to die.

That is the problem, really, because currently the "treatment" for suicidal tendencies is to try to get the person "past" the crisis point so that they can see that "it's not that bad really". Hardly addressing the real issues at all.

You've decribed the horrifying progress of this "death reasoning" very well. I for one hope never to have to face that again :/.

F
:pooter

[donquixote99]

If all of those are true, then what is the point of living ?

No point. Logic takes one into this blind alley. At which point one may abandon logic as pointless, and become a leaf driven by the winds of passion, destructive to others and onesself.

You gotta have faith. Faith that good is good and that life is good. People elaborate lots of 'stories' supporting such faith, but the above is the necessary nub of it.

[sinterest]

Assisted suicide should be legal for terminally ill.
For healthly people, suicide is one of the meanist acts one can do.
Many of their friends, family etc. suffer from guilt from "being part of the reason", to "what could they have done to stop the act".
In many cases, I think that laying on this guilt trip is intentional.
"They don't give me the kind of attention I want so I'll show them".
I, on the other hand, would admire someone who wanted to end his life, kill himself by making it look like an accident.
That would be extreme unselfishness.

[cwinton]

At which point one may abandon logic as pointless, and become a leaf driven by the winds of passion, destructive to others and onesself.

Is it always destructive to one's self and others? It seems that 'follow your heart' is the rule of the day. Not: 'don't follow your heart because passion leads to self-destruction.' I guess I'm not following you here, Don. Passion, after all, is the prime-motivator behind ambition and love.

Of course suicide is selfish, but aren't all acts if you really examine them, selfish ?

Well, put like that ...

"They don't give me the kind of attention I want so I'll show them".

I think this is spot on. It's a matter of 'getting back' ... because there is no other way to exercise this perceived need of retaliation.

I, on the other hand, would admire someone who wanted to end his life, kill himself by making it look like an accident.
That would be extreme unselfishness.

Well, most people intent on 'ending it all' do not cry out for help ... do not talk to anybody ... do not call Hotlines ... to not leave notes ... they just methodically find a way to end their own suffering.

It's a mental illness, of course. A plague and curse for those whom suffer from 'suicide-ideation.' A living hell, to be sure. Precursors are self-injury, SI, which takes on many forms, even subtle forms, such as self-neglect, addiction, besides or including cutting and blood-letting. For some reason, SI websites focus on just cutting. But SI is so much more complex and far more SIs do not cut. SI often intimidates fear, or renders the fear-threshhold much higher for the SIs than regular folks. They take risks nobody in their 'right' mind would ever take.

Here is an excellent article on the four basic chemicals which are thought to control behavior within the brain: Chemical Imbalances In Mental Health Disorders (http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=160)

Happiness is elusive for many people. Perhaps keeping them in Hell is the selfish act? Hmm? I'm not sure and I struggle with this. I just know life is not supposed to be that way, so it seems prudent to find another solution.

Once again, those whom suicide, just do it ... they don't cry out for help ... they just end their own suffering. End of Hell. Problem solved.

I'd only admire the SI'r that left no mess for others to have to clean up. Jumping from a high-point in a public square, therefore, does not fulfill this criteria. Neither does blowing one's brains out in their home or car. And after death, there is oftentimes the awful release of bowels and bladder to clean up as well. Best to sit in a river, ocean or lake, I suppose.

Absent of 'faith,' you must find a motivator. Something to keep you going through today and into tomorrow. One day at a time. Focus on today ... with a bit of preponderance on how to make tomorrow easier.

[Fredfredson]

Absent of 'faith,' you must find a motivator. Something to keep you going through today and into tomorrow. One day at a time. Focus on today ... with a bit of preponderance on how to make tomorrow easier.


Agreed

There is always hope.

Hope can bring people through the most awful trauma and situations for which there is no conceivable solution.

Hope can also damn us, in that we will NOT do what is needed because we "hope" somebody else will do it or we "hope" it is not as bad as it looks etc.

To me Hope is a two edged sword which while powerful can be dangerous to the wielder as well.

Hope for me is the hallmark of the natural world. The hope of a seed buried in the dark earth awaiting the return of the rains and the sun.
The hope of a parent for their newborn child.
The hope of a cold and bleak winter prairie, it is a patient hope, waiting for the wheel to turn and life to return.

We do well to emulate that patience and calm in the face of our own winter storms.

F
:pooter

[sir digalot]

why is it illegal here in the states... it was in the uk for the longest time, but then they repealed the law.... why is it illegal to take your own life? after all it is YOUR life isn't it and technically it falls under freedom of speech/actions doesn't it?

[tolivr]

it is YOUR life isn't it and technically it falls under freedom of speech/actions doesn't it?

Using that analysis, then why isn't using illegal drugs legal?

[Fredfredson]

Using that analysis, then why isn't using illegal drugs legal?

I've always wondered that.... other than the obvious "because it's illegal stupid" :/

F
:pooter

[donquixote99]

I guess I'm not following you here, Don. Passion, after all, is the prime-motivator behind ambition and love.

Passion, sure, but not with logic and reason wrecked. The latter have to be operative to choose and set limits. Otherwise, you're flying without a stick.

Hope is faith, Fred.

[cwinton]

why is it illegal here in the states... it was in the uk for the longest time, but then they repealed the law.... why is it illegal to take your own life? after all it is YOUR life isn't it and technically it falls under freedom of speech/actions doesn't it?

Because 'saving' people is really, really, really BIG BUSINESS.

Companies put laws on the books.
Individuals don't.

[sir digalot]

i am all for making illegal drugs legal.. that way they can be regulated and taxed along with the current legal drugs....

besides it could make insurance companies even richer insuring drug addicts and open up the job market for those of us that do not do drugs....

hey if you wanna snort shit or cut yer own nuts off i am not gonna stop you.... as long as you do not make me do it....

i suppose drug addicts cna be detrimental to society as a whole with their actions and activities trying to keep up a habit... but a a successful suicide is alot less trouble some.... unless you happen to do it somewhere really stupid and cause a lot of damage... but that act itself should not be illegal...


anyway they can't prosecute you for taking an illegal drug, only possesing it can't they? and seeing that to take it you ned to have it in your posession for a certain amount of time ( unless force fed the drug whilst being tied to a chair with blindfolds on or something) then you are guilty of possesion not taking it

[cwinton]

anyway they can't prosecute you for taking an illegal drug, only possesing it can't they? and seeing that to take it you ned to have it in your posession for a certain amount of time ( unless force fed the drug whilst being tied to a chair with blindfolds on or something) then you are guilty of possesion not taking it

Good post, SirDigs. Unfortunately, you can indeed be prosecuted for having taken drugs or being under the influence of an illicit drug. In California, everybody knows what a 502 is (driving while drunk) ... but few know what a 501 is: being under the influence of an illicit substance.

Or maybe I've got those numbers reversed ... been awhile.

I went to a party many years ago in California and it was raided. A group, including myself, was takin' in paddy-waggons to the police station and forced to piss 'samples.' We were all charged with this 'being under the influence of illicit drugs.' I fought it ... and was never prosecuted, but they never dropped the charges either.

It's always bothered me to no end that there is a sample of my urine hanging around someplace that could be tampered with (paranoid though I am).

Don:
Passion, sure, but not with logic and reason wrecked. The latter have to be operative to choose and set limits. Otherwise, you're flying without a stick.

Thank you for clarifying. I think that's right on the mark. I'm pretty sure, and few would disagree around here, that I'm flying without a stick myself. ;)

[donquixote99]

...I'm flying without a stick myself.

Sounds scary! But you're clearly not without a stick. :wife

[Jayne B]

i am all for making illegal drugs legal.. that way they can be regulated and taxed along with the current legal drugs....


In the Canadian province of Quebec, where there have been several major drugs rings busted in the past few years (mainly due to changes in gang law), the government revenue people are now billing convicted traffickers for the sales tax on their known-sold illicit merchandise. Imagine walking out of court with whatever assets you have managed to salvage from the 'confiscation of proceeds of crime' process, only to be handed a bill for hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales taxes owing...some of these drug kingpins have tax bills in the millions, and the government is calmly going through the procedure to get it all, even to the point of seizing houses etc (tax people can do that).

Anyway, back to topic:

Terminal illness: I firmly support the living will concept. My aging parents have done theirs, and in our family, we have all discussed our individual desires so there will be no surprises and hopefully no hurtful arguments over when/whether to flip the switch. There may come a time for any of us to be unable to choose our time unaided, so hopefully we will also discuss the alternatives in the event anyone is sick enough to be approaching that point. I know many families never have these discussions - western civilization pretends death doesn't exist, and hides it as much as possible - so their cases will naturally follow a different course than we anticipate.

As for the right of the healthy individual to end their own life, that's a tough call. And I can sure see the fear of failing to stop a suicide can make people go to extreme lengths. Nobody wants that responsibility for another human. I've dealt with a few suicidal adolescents, and there are no magic words... no 'one right way' to help them snap out of it Fortunately, they have generally short attention spans during the teen years, so getting them through a few bad nights may be all that's necessary to remove that danger, although more intervention is useful to help them learn to cope with their underlying issues (if they'll take it). A teen has to be REALLY screwed up before I'll believe they're better off dead than fighting to make something meaningful out of their life.

If, however, the suicide is an adult, who is genuinely facing a hopeless situation (health, finances, entire lack of meaningful social interaction and inability to acquire same) that is going to overshadow their remaining life no matter how long life may last, then I have to respect their right to choose to stop fighting. But I'd prefer (like I'm ever given the choice) that they do the deed with consideration for the people who have to clean up after them. Law enforcement officers who suicide in the station shower room fit this category - it's really awful for their co-workers, but it cleans up easily and the shattering image doesn't forever after haunt the family home for their surviviors.

Parents, family members, and professionals watching a determined suicider feel a lot of anger and resentment that often doesn't get dealt with, too... they've invested huge amounts of energy, sometimes for decades, in bringing up a child and propping up a depressed individual and looking for the right combination of help and support, and it all goes to waste if the person manages to die anyway.

So I think it's definitely kinder to go DO rather than talk, but it's also cutting yourself off from potential hope if you don't talk to anyone. Often all it takes is a slight shift in perspective to make the seemingly unbearable become manageable....

[Larkin]

because there is no other way to exercise this perceived need of retaliation.

Sure there is. Kill them.

t's a mental illness, of course. A plague and curse for those whom suffer from 'suicide-ideation.'

Bullshit. I think that thoughts of suicide are natural for everyone, and further I think that the world taken to its logical extremes will, much of the time, lead to suicide as a rational answer.

I'd only admire the SI'r that left no mess for others to have to clean up. Jumping from a high-point in a public square, therefore, does not fulfill this criteria. Neither does blowing one's brains out in their home or car. And after death, there is oftentimes the awful release of bowels and bladder to clean up as wel

Bah, if someone suicides the least society can do is clean it up. Western Society values individuality above the group, keep it uniform and let it apply in this situation as well.

Absent of 'faith,' you must find a motivator. Something to keep you going through today and into tomorrow. One day at a time. Focus on today ... with a bit of preponderance on how to make tomorrow easier.

Whats the point ? If one dosen't enjoy life, why should one attempt to find a motivator to keep them living even if they hate it ? Is life somehow going to get better someday ? Unlikely.

I'm not talking about people who suicide because of trauma or depression, but reasoned suicide. "Well my life sucks, I dont have a reason to live, seems like the most rational choice". I guess most people don't think like that, but its how I think.

I think that soft drugs( Pot, Shrooms, Peyote-especially, etc) should be legal. I don't approve of the legalization of shit like morphine/heroine or other highly addictive substances.

[cwinton]

So I think it's definitely kinder to go DO rather than talk, but it's also cutting yourself off from potential hope if you don't talk to anyone. Often all it takes is a slight shift in perspective to make the seemingly unbearable become manageable....

JayneB: good points. I really enjoyed reading your post. Kinda worried about cops who kill themselves in the shower at work. Sounds a bit conspiratorial. Good cop, bad cop, and the one that knew too much, and all that. But the sentiment of not leaving the stigmata on the family is a good point.

t's a mental illness, of course. A plague and curse for those whom suffer from 'suicide-ideation.'

Bullshit. I think that thoughts of suicide are natural for everyone, and further I think that the world taken to its logical extremes will, much of the time, lead to suicide as a rational answer.

Sure, the 'thought' is ... and healthy minds dismiss it in moments. It is not dwelled upon. To dwell is called 'suicide-ideation,' which is an extremely unpleasant hell to live in for those whom do. And yes, that truly is categorized as a mental-illness whether or not you like the term.

[quote]I'd only admire the SI'r that left no mess for others to have to clean up. Jumping from a high-point in a public square, therefore, does not fulfill this criteria. Neither does blowing one's brains out in their home or car. And after death, there is oftentimes the awful release of bowels and bladder to clean up as wel

Bah, if someone suicides the least society can do is clean it up. Western Society values individuality above the group, keep it uniform and let it apply in this situation as well.

An interesting perspective. Sounds more like someone that just doesn't care what mess they leave behind. If you ever had to deal with such a mess, you'd change your mind right quick.

Absent of 'faith,' you must find a motivator. Something to keep you going through today and into tomorrow. One day at a time. Focus on today ... with a bit of preponderance on how to make tomorrow easier.

Whats the point ? If one dosen't enjoy life, why should one attempt to find a motivator to keep them living even if they hate it ? Is life somehow going to get better someday ? Unlikely.

If you are speaking from personal experience, please see your doctor and I do recommend Effexor, for starters. Anyone whom may be feeling this way would be remiss in their responsibilities as an human if they did not at least make the effort. Long-term sadness, or hopelessness, are signs of major depression, which is somewhat treatable in MOST people ... not all ... but most. If you read the article link which I posted regarding brain chemicals, you will see that Effexor is indeed one of these effective treatments. Always worth a shot in anyone who is hating life.

I'm not talking about people who suicide because of trauma or depression, but reasoned suicide. "Well my life sucks, I dont have a reason to live, seems like the most rational choice". I guess most people don't think like that, but its how I think.

Then I would say: "Definately, see your doctor."

I think that soft drugs( Pot, Shrooms, Peyote-especially, etc) should be legal. I don't approve of the legalization of shit like morphine/heroine or other highly addictive substances.

Agreed. I am not aware of anything other than opiates being highly addictive. The differences, for example, on a molecular level between sugar and cocaine are the mere placement of a few atoms. However, only one is physically addictive. Sugar. Go figure.

[donquixote99]

I am not aware of anything other than opiates being highly addictive. The differences, for example, on a molecular level between sugar and cocaine are the mere placement of a few atoms. However, only one is physically addictive. Sugar. Go figure.

OK. The real point is that abuse of some things, including cocaine and methamphetamines, appears to have more dire and ruinous consequences for a greater percentage of users than is true of other things, such as alcohol and marijuana. Should the law reflect that difference? How should the difference be defined, in your view, if not by "addictiveness."

I'm just asking. I'm for regulation, not prohibition. Stricter regulation for some things, including restricted distribution, prohibition of advertising, etc....

[Ms Digabit]

a while ago we were called to the scene of a known 'attention seeking' suicide attempt. On arrival a young policeman was very distraught and in shock...asking for treatment.....when asked what happened, he said that he had gone up to try and talk the jumper down and knowing that this person had done this quite a few times, was not expecting much......after about half an hour of positive persuasion, the policeman was getting nowhere.....so he decides to use a bit of reverse psycology on the jumper....along the lines of "if you're going to do it, hurry up, its cold out here.."

so he did.............

I wonder if this would be classed as manslaughter?, or perhaps another issue would be to look at the training of these people......comments like that would surely not be appropriate, especially to those desperate enough to attempt suicide. As cw says it is usually those who don't announce anything that are sucessful. With others its a plain cry for help or disordered mind.

[Piran]

The differences, for example, on a molecular level between sugar and cocaine are the mere placement of a few atoms.

Who told you that Cwint? They are vastly different, in molecular terms. For a start cocaine is an aromatic compound (i.e. it contains a benzene ring) whereas glucose is a linear molecule.

I don't doubt that sugar is more addictive, although it is incorrent to say that cocaine isn't powerfully addictive. You can become chemically dependent on cocaine after only a few uses, although many casual users never become chemically addicted. Once you are addicted though, it is a very destructive drug, although of course the reasons for this destructiveness are debatable. Many would argue that it is the cost that is the reason it is so destructive. If you are addicted to sugar you can pop across the road and buy a 30 p chocolate bar. If you're addicted to cocaine you have to find £50 from somewhere, and if you don't have it, then you steal it. Also, cocaine obviously has greater effects on the body than other chemicals. It is the most powerful stimulant found in nature, and thus can effect the way you live your daily life.

[Zan de Man]

The Christian attitude to suicide is a study in itself. Part of the fun lies in defining suicide. A Spanish theologian declared that if a shipwrecked sailor were to drown after giving way and allowing another person to grasp the last piece of wood, that was permissible, but if he were actually grasping the wood at the time and ceded his place to another, that would be suicide and an unforgivable sin.

The Church only declared suicide to be a premier league sin because Chritian suicide cults were developing. They were so keen to get to Paradise that they couldn't wait for nature.

[Piran]

In regard to suicide, I find it a strangely interesting topic. It's something that is close to my heart.

OK, healthy people tend not to commit suicide. Healthy people would tend not to attempt suicide either. Mental health is included within the sphere of general health.

There are many categories of people who actually commit or attempt to commit suicide. In people with terminal and painful illnesses, I would say suicide is a rational and logical course of action. They have weighed up the pros and cons, and decided that it is best for them and probably for everybody else too.

Suicide is strange because it apparently goes against the basic human instinct for survival. If we die, we cannot pass on our genes to more offspring. However, suicide can to the physically healthy seem like a logical course of action. Afterall, on an intellectual level, what is the point of living? If people cannot find meaning in their life, if they cannot justify their continued existence, then suicide might suddenly seem like a sensible option. If living is too painful, then you might wonder why you continue to live. Mental illness is a very real thing. Someone might tell you "yeah, but at least you're not starving in Africa", but that really is quite irrelevant. You genuinely feel that your life is futile. You genuinely feel that you'd be better off dead. For those people, I find suicide quite understandable. However, that doesn't stop it from being a shame. Mental illness is treatable, and it's only a shame that these kinds of people aren't reached.

Attempting suicide might be a cry for help. So what? If people make that cry, we must endeavour to help them. Because we can help. In fact perhaps the reason people have to resort to abortive suicide attempts to get attention is because their very real feelings are ignored, disregarded or shunned.

[Zan de Man]

I've dealt with a wide range of suicidal behaviour. Some are clearly not serious, but the intent to self-harm is still there. Indeed, self-harm is an increasing problem. I was in a forensic psychiatry inpatient unit the other week and a charge nurse told me that her patients were not simply cutting themsleves, but cutting bits off themselves.

I've also seen suicides which were clearly designed to succeed. One was a young mother, who waited for her husband to leave the house for a 12 hour shift before taking a cocktail of sedatives and barbiturates. I knew her, because she lived in one of the poorest parts of town and was often present in the homes of her neighbours when they were ill, caring for them.

I've also seen a 19 year old single mother kill herself with Inderal and a middle aged woman whop took herself off to the garden shed and cut her wrists and throat with an electric carving knife. She survived. The most tragic case I recall was a teenage girl who drank Paraquat. By the time she died, surrounded by relatives, over a week later, she had had time to reflect and decide she didn't want to die. Only it was too late.

[Piran]

I think that part of the problem with suicide, suicidal thoughts or depression in general is that many people don't understand it, or don't want to understand it. I think, particularly in macho western societies, that emotion is somewhat frowned upon. Stiff upper lip and all that. Self-disgust is self-obsession, it is self-indulgent, but that really makes not a bit of difference. Because it is real. The thoughts are real. As real as this computer monitor that you are looking at. It's tangible. But, it is curable, and perhaps if our society realised this, and accepted that it isn't just pathetic people trying to get a bit of attention, we might be able to improve the lives of many people.

[cwinton]

Piran: great posts! The sugar/cocaine structure ... I don't know where I gleened that erroneous bit of info. Glad you set me straight on that.

Don: I understand your point about the degree of devestation IRT drugs. I'm one of those liberal-types that think people should police themselves. That said, I certainly do support laws prohibiting driving under the influence of anything ... or going to work stoned, etc. Therefore, 'addiction' isn't an option for most people. Now, for those who can't help themselves and become addicted, I have no idea what the solution is. Education is certainly helpful. We are now seeing radical new 'anti-addiction drugs' under research with very promising treatment possibilities. Alcohol is also highly addictive. However, everyone knows you can't drive or go to work drunk. Those whom do, suffer the consequences of their actions. The same standard applies to drug-use, IMO. Jailing those who use on their own time for their own reasons is not helping society, but hiding an intricate part of humanity by denying it exists. I know not the answers. But the current system sucks.

And there are always exceptions: if you walk to work and your place of employment is a Head Shop, what the hell difference does it make if you smoke bong hits all day long? But I certainly don't want to fly on an airline piloted by someone smoking a joint or sipping cocktails. Anyone that uses power tools shouldn't be smoking pot or drinking alcohol. But when their off work, smoke and drink all you want. I don't think it's anyone's business.

I've known two heroin addicts, and I've got to tell you that these were the stupidest acting people I've ever met in my life. They just weren't connecting the dots. Of course, they thought they were ...

If someone wants to do meth and fuck all night like rabbits ... so what? But if it becomes a daily thing ... that's a whole different ballgame. Same with LSD or any other type of 'recreational drug use.' It's the difference between 'recreating' and 'enslavement.' Not all people who drink are alcoholics. And not all people who use drugs are drug-addicts. I think the percentage of alcohol-abuse is probably higher than that of cocaine-abuse. The difference is, we know how to 'treat' alcoholics ... we don't have viable treatments yet for drug-addictions, including caffeine, nicotine and sugar.

To tie this in with suicide, I suspect the the number of suicides is proportional in some way to some form of addiction; but I have never seen any studies on this. I've only seen studies indicating that those with mental-health issues are much more likely to 'self-medicate' with alcohol, nicotine, cocaine, pot, food, etc.

One of these days I'd like to visit a Native American Church and participate in a peyote-eating ceremony. I'm sure it would be an very enlightening experience. Perhaps radical treatments such as these would help some SI'rs ...

[lily]

why is it illegal here in the states... it was in the uk for the longest time, but then they repealed the law.... why is it illegal to take your own life? after all it is YOUR life isn't it and technically it falls under freedom of speech/actions doesn't it?

Well, what are they going to do throw them in jail????

Terminal illness: I firmly support the living will concept. My aging parents have done theirs, and in our family, we have all discussed our individual desires so there will be no surprises and hopefully no hurtful arguments over when/whether to flip the switch. There may come a time for any of us to be unable to choose our time unaided, so hopefully we will also discuss the alternatives in the event anyone is sick enough to be approaching that point. I know many families never have these discussions - western civilization pretends death doesn't exist, and hides it as much as possible - so their cases will naturally follow a different course than we anticipate.

You beat me to it, this was going to be my next arguement :cheers

With that said, I must add, that most people think suicide is done on impulse, having known two people who have succeeded, they planed everything out to the most minute detail. Also, and this is just my opinion, people think of them as a weak person, on the contrary, it takes a lot of courage to actually do it.

[lily]

As far as assisted-suicide for the terminally ill, I support it. However,
once the patient is no longer able to push the plunger, or whatever, then it
becomes 'euthenasia.' For this reason, if the person didn't do it when they
were capable, I could not do it to them. And, if they were capable of
'begging' for it ... then, I'd think they could find a means of 'pushing a
button' or whatever (in most cases) ... either using their jaws, or rolling
their head, or whathaveyou.

Well, that sure blows your dying with dignity theory right out of the water.



Once again, those whom suicide, just do it ... they don't cry out for help
... they just end their own suffering. End of Hell. Problem solved.

I'd only admire the SI'r that left no mess for others to have to clean up.
Jumping from a high-point in a public square, therefore, does not fulfill
this criteria. Neither does blowing one's brains out in their home or car.
And after death, there is oftentimes the awful release of bowels and bladder
to clean up as well. Best to sit in a river, ocean or lake, I suppose.

Brilliant as usual

[cwinton]

Brillaint as usual

lily, do you ever respond without resorting to ad hominem?
And why do you have to bring that crap to this thread?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the latest statistics I could find on suicide in the US:

Suicide in the United States FAQ Sheet

picture of teenage boy -- Males are at least four times more likely than females to die from suicide.


The Problem

* Suicide took the lives of 29,350 Americans in 2000.1

* More people die from suicide than from homicide. In 2000, there were 1.7 times as many suicides as homicides.1

* Overall, suicide is the 11th leading cause of death for all Americans, and is the third leading cause of death for young people aged 15-24.1

* Males are more than four times more likely to die from suicide than are females.1 However, females are more likely to attempt suicide than are males.2

* 1999, white males accounted for 72% of all suicides. Together, white males and white females accounted for over 90% of all suicides.1 However, during the period from 1979-1992, suicide rates for Native Americans (a category that includes American Indians and Alaska Natives) were about 1.5 times the national rates. There was a disproportionate number of suicides among young male Native Americans during this period, as males 15-24 accounted for 64% of all suicides by Native Americans.3

* Suicide rates are generally higher than the national average in the western states and lower in the eastern and midwestern states.4

* 57% of suicides in 2000 were committed with a firearm.1

Suicide Among the Elderly

* Suicide rates increase with age and are highest among Americans aged 65 years and older. The ten year period, 1980-1990, was the first decade since the 1940s that the suicide rate for older residents rose instead of declined.5

* Men accounted for 84% of suicides among persons aged 65 years and older in 2000.1

* From 1980-1998, the largest relative increases in suicide rates occurred among those 80-84 years of age. The rate for men in this age group increased 17% (from 43.5 per 100,000 to 52.0).1,6

* Firearms were the most common method of suicide by both males and females, 65 years and older, in 2000, accounting for 79.5% of male and 37% of female suicides in that age group.1

* Suicide rates among the elderly are highest for those who are divorced or widowed. In 1992, the rate for divorced or widowed men in this age group was 2.7 times that for married men, 1.4 times that for never-married men, and over 17 times that for married women. The rate for divorced or widowed women was 1.8 times that for married women and 1.4 times that for never-married women.6

* Risk factors for suicide among older persons differ from those among the young. Older persons have a higher prevalence of depression, a greater use of highly lethal methods and social isolation. They also make fewer attempts per completed suicide, have a higher-male-to-female ratio than other groups, have often visited a health-care provider before their suicide, and have more physical illnesses.7

Suicide Among the Young

* Persons under age 25 accounted for 15% of all suicides in 2000.1 From 1952-1995, the incidence of suicide among adolescents and young adults nearly tripled. From 1980-1997, the rate of suicide among persons aged 15-19 years increased by 11% and among persons aged 10-14 years by 109%. From 1980-1996, the rate increased 105% for African-American males aged 15-19.1,8

* For young people 15-24 years old, suicide is the third leading cause of death, behind unintentional injury and homicide. In 1999, more teenagers and young adults died from suicide than from cancer, heart disease, AIDS, birth defects, stroke, and chronic lung disease combined.1

* Among persons aged 15-19 years, firearm-related suicides accounted for more than 60% of the increase in the overall rate of suicide from 1980-1997.1

* The risk for suicide among young people is greatest among young white males; however, from 1980 through 1995, suicide rates increased most rapidly among young black males.9 Although suicide among young children is a rare event, the dramatic increase in the rate among persons aged 10-14 years underscores the urgent need for intensifying efforts to prevent suicide among persons in this age group.


CDC's Efforts in Suicide Prevention

The National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC) is working to raise awareness of suicide as a serious public health problem and is focusing on science-based prevention strategies to reduce injuries and deaths due to suicide. Current activities include the following:

* The Surgeon General's Call To Action introduces a blueprint for addressing suicide - Awareness, Intervention, and Methodology (AIM), an approach derived from the collaborative deliberations of the 1st National Suicide Prevention Conference participants. As a framework for suicide prevention, AIM includes 15 key recommendations that were refined from consensus and evidence-based findings presented at the Reno conference.

* The Institute of Medicine released a report entitled Reducing Suicide: A National Imperative. The report contains four recommendations from The Committee on Pathophysiology and Prevention of Adolescent and Adult Suicide which examined the state of the science base, gaps in our knowledge, strategies for prevention, and research designs for the study of suicide. The report reflects different perspectives and levels of analysis, and is precisely what policy makers need to do to advance the science and improve health and social perspectives. The project was funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Institute of Mental Health, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, and the Veterans Administration. Views in this report are those of the Institute of Medicine Committee on Pathophysiology and Prevention of Adolescent and Adult Suicide and are not necessarily those of the funding agencies. The report is available for viewing or purchase on the National Academy Press website.

* National Strategy for Suicide Prevention: Goals and Objectives for Action
www.mentalhealth.org/suicideprevention/
The National Strategy for Suicide Prevention creates a framework for suicide prevention for the Nation. The Goals and Objectives for Action articulate a set of 11 goals and 68 objectives, and provides a blueprint for action.

* Reporting on Suicide: Recommendations for the Media
www.afsp.org/education/newrecommendations.htm
The media play a powerful role in educating the public about suicide prevention. Stories about suicide inform readers and/or viewers about the likely causes of suicide, warning signs, trends in suicide rates, and recent advances in treatment. Media are able to reach multiple audiences about ways to prevent suicide. These recommendations will help guide the media to educate readers and viewers about the steps they can take to prevent suicide.

* Participating in national conferences to exchange information about research and prevention strategies (including the Suicide Prevention Advocacy Network conference held in Washington, DC in July 2002).

* Supporting extramural research that will examine risk factors for suicide in the general population.

* Developing the Suicide Prevention Research Center at the Trauma Institute, University of Nevada School of Medicine.

* Continuing support for a Native American suicide prevention center.

* Evaluating the effectiveness of current suicide prevention programs, including two interventions, one with youth in New York and one with older persons in South Carolina.


Suicide Prevention Materials Published by CDC

* Anderson MA; Kaufman K; Simon TR; et al. School-Associated Violent Deaths in the United States, 1994-1999 JAMA. 2001;286:2695-2702.
Study finds school-associated violent deaths rare, fewer events but more deaths per event Although school-associated violent deaths remain rare events, they have occurred often enough for public health experts to begin to detect patterns and identify potential risk factors according to a new study conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in conjunction with the U.S. Departments of Education and Justice.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Emergency Medical System Responses to Suicide-Related Calls - Maine, November 1999 - October 2000. MMWR 2002; 51 (03); 56-59.
Suicide is devastating for individuals, families, schools and communities. This study conducted in Maine reveals that response by emergency medical system (EMS) to suicide calls may be useful in early prevention efforts by increasing the understanding of the nature and characteristics associated with suicidal behavior. It also provides evidence for the importance of establishing statewide and national suicidal behavior surveillance systems.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Nonfatal Self-Inflicted Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments --- United States, 2000. MMWR 2002; 51(20); 436-8.
In 2000, more than 264,000 persons were treated for nonfatal self-inflicted injuries in hospital Emergency Departments (EDs) according to a CDC MMWR released today. Most of the injuries were either poisonings or lacerations; 60% were probable suicide attempts. This study provides national estimates and the characteristics of these self-inflicted injuries, which can be used to help monitor trends and evaluate prevention programs and policies.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Programs for the prevention of suicide among adolescents and young adults; and suicide contagion and the reporting of suicide: recommendations from a national workshop. MMWR 1994; 43 (No.RR-6).
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Regional Variations in Suicide Rates -- United States, 1990-1994. 1997; 46(34); 789-793.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Suicide Prevention Evaluation in a Western Athabaskan American Indian Tribe--New Mexico, 1988-1997. MMWR 1998;47 (No. 13);257-261.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Suicide Prevention Among Active Duty Air Force Personnel-United States, 1990-1999. MMWR 1999; 48 (No. 46); 1053-1057.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Suicide among Black Youths--United States, 1980-1995. MMWR 1998;47(No.10);193-196.Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Suicide among children, adolescents, and young adults--United States, 1980-1992. MMWR 1995; 44:289-291.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Surveillance for Injuries and Violence Among Older Adults. MMWR 1999; 48 (No. SS-8); 27-34.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Temporal Variations in School-Associated Student Homicide and Suicide Events -- United States, 1992-1999 MMWR 2001; 50(31); 657-660.
New information from a CDC study may help school administrators in better planning and implementing violence prevention programs. In analyzing school-associated violent deaths since the beginning of the 1992 school year, CDC researchers found that student homicide rates are typically highest near the start of the fall and spring semesters. Student suicide rates were higher during the spring semester. Over the seven-year study, CDC confirmed 209 school-associated violent deaths. The latter equates to an average of 1 student homicide event every 7 school days, and 1 student suicide event every 31 school days.
* Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Youth Suicide Prevention Programs: A Resource Guide. Atlanta: Centers for Disease Control, 1992.
* Crosby AE, Cheltenham MP, Sacks JJ. Incidence of Suicidal Ideation and Behavior in the United States, 1994. Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior. 1999; 29(2):131-140.
* Kachur SP, Potter LB, James SP, Powell KE. Suicide in the United States, 1980-1992. Atlanta: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, 1995. Violence Surveillance Summary, No.1.
* Potter LB, Powell KP, Kachur SP. Suicide prevention from a public health perspective. Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior. 1995; 25(1):82-91.
* Rosenberg ML, Mercy JA, Potter LB. Firearms and Suicide. [Editorial]. NEJM 1999;341(21):1609-1611.
* Silverman MM and Simon TR, editors. Supplement to Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior: The Houston Case-Control Study of Nearly Lethal Suicide Attempts December, 2001 Suicide and Life Threatening Behavior Volume 32(1) 1-86.
CDC releases study on non-traditional risk factors for nearly lethal suicide attempts. Employing an innovative approach to studying suicide attempters who either used a highly lethal method or would have died without medical help, researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have identified several non-traditional health risk factors that have rarely been included in suicide research. These non-traditional health associated risk factors include: acute alcohol use, changing residences, existing medical conditions, and characteristics of impulsive suicide behavior. The findings are published in a special supplement to the spring edition of Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior (SLTB). SLTB is the official Journal of the American Association of Suicidology.
* Wallace LJD, Calhoun AD, Powell KE, O'Neil J, James, SP. Homicide and Suicide among Native Americans, 1979-1992. Atlanta, GA: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, 1996. Violence Surveillance Summary Series, No. 2.


Resources

*

American Association of Suicidology
www.suicidology.org or call 1-202-237-2280
*

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention
www.afsp.org
*

National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH)
www.nimh.nih.gov
*

National Strategy for Suicide Prevention
Goals and Objectives for Action
www.mentalhealth.org/suicideprevention/
*

National Suicide Prevention Strategy
www.sg.gov/library/calltoaction/
*

National Youth Violence Prevention Resource Center www.safeyouth.org
The National Youth Violence Prevention Resource Center (NYVPRC) was established as a central source of information on prevention and intervention programs, publications, research, and statistics on violence committed by and against children and teens. The resource center is a collaboration between the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other federal agencies. Together, the NYVPRC Website, www.safeyouth.org, and call center, 1-866-SAFEYOUTH (723-3968), serve as a user-friendly, single point of access to federal information on youth violence prevention and suicide.
*

Reporting on Suicide: Recommendations for the Media
www.afsp.org/education/newrecommendations.htm
The media play a powerful role in educating the public about suicide prevention. Stories about suicide inform readers and/or viewers about the likely causes of suicide, warning signs, trends in suicide rates, and recent advances in treatment. Media are able to reach multiple audiences about ways to prevent suicide. These recommendations will help guide the media to educate readers and viewers about the steps they can take to prevent suicide.
*

Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration (SAMHSA)
www.samhsa.gov
*

Suicide Prevention Advocacy Network (SPAN)
www.spanusa.org

[/quote]

[Larkin]

It takes a hell of a lot of guts to kill yourself. Of course it also takes a hell of a lot of guts to live when you are that miserable.

[lily]

[quote]Brillaint as usual

lily, do you ever respond without resorting to ad hominem?
And why do you have to bring that crap to this thread?

Well, sometimes, I do. Thank you for asking :cheers . It's just that your inane posts bring out the best ad hominem in me :cheers :cheers As for crap, you're the one that brought it up :dunno

Cwinton. I seem to detect some sort of problem with my responding to your posts. Wishing to keep peace and harmony on this forum and not wanting to upset your delicate balance with reality, I will try my best to just scroll past your posts and not respond. It's not like I'll be missing much of anything. :wave

[lily]

It takes a hell of a lot of guts to kill yourself. Of course it also takes a hell of a lot of guts to live when you are that miserable.

Both sides of the coin.

[Xenchantresse]

I think that suicide as a way out of problems is a coward's way out. I think it's SELFISH. I wish more people who kill themselves would stop first, to think about the damage they are doing to those they leave beind. I have known more than one person to commit suicide, and it's not a pretty aftermath.

HOWEVER... I am all for people who are terminally ill, ending their suffering, as long as it is THEIR OWN CHOICE.

My grandfather was terminally ill and shot himself. He had emphezema and was on resperators and in a hospital bed, though he was at home... it got to be too much for him, so he asked for his gun.
Do I fault him for this? NO I DON'T. I never did. I was only 12 when it happened, and they told me the truth... I know what kind of pain he was in. I saw him when he was in the nursing home, and I bless my grandmother for getting him out of there and bringing him home.
I am all for a person's right to die with dignity, as long as they are irreversably, and terminally ill. I think it is cruel to force them to stay alive and in irrelievable pain, espercially if tey are conscious, physically and mentally aware of that pain day after day.

I DON'T think it's right for someone to decide for them that they should die, if they are conscious and able to make that choice for themselves.

There is another thing called "passive suicide" which I support as well. That is when a terminally ill person chooses to refuse treatment and either refuses or stops taking medication.
I think if they want to refuse tratment and allow their bodies to pass, natrually, that should be their choice as well.

I think that if we want to make a difference with people committing suicide as a treatment for depression or fear, we as a society need to pay more attention to the realities that these people face, and help them discover more reasonable and effective solutions to their problems.

[I Am The Moog]

It takes a hell of a lot of guts to kill yourself. Of course it also takes a hell of a lot of guts to live when you are that miserable.

It actually doesn't take a lot of guts to kill yourself. When someone feels that low about everything they are experiencing they really aren't thinking straight and just want a way out of how they are feeling. The last thing on their mind is how everyone else will feel after they are gone, even if it should be their first thought and if they are capable of thinking about everyone else around them then they are probably not that serious in the first place. :/

[Xenchantresse]

Once again, those whom suicide, just do it ... they don't cry out for help
... they just end their own suffering Not true.

My grandfather asked for the gun to kill himself.
A friend of mine who killed himself a couple of years ago, saught help before doing it, and left signs that it was on his mind.

I don't want to go down the list of everyone I've known to commit suicide, but I DO know that sometimes they DO seek help...

[Xenchantresse]

Moog...

That's why I said it's selfish. Sometimes, they really aren't thinking rationally and worried about what they are doing to others... Other times, they are.

If you have ever talked to a terminally ill person, or a suicidal person... sometimes they DO "rationalize" their intentions against the consequences... Not always, but it does happen.

[I Am The Moog]

Xenchantresse

I agree and don't want to generalise, just referring from personal experience as you are

[Xenchantresse]

I will concede on the guts part.

I think I don't have the guts to kill myself deliberately. BUT I think that may just be a personality characteristic...

I'll find an example of what I mean:

If a woman is raped... some women don't have the guts to stand up to the guy and hold him accountable, they don't think they can handle the publicity of a public trial etc... while some women don't have the guts NOT to. For them it is harder to not face their attacker than it is TO face him.

I think suicide might have similar personality characteristics to it. Some people don't have the guts to face life, some don't have the guts to face death.

[I Am The Moog]

Xen

I don't think you got my point. It has nothing to do with personality traits. The strongest personality in the world can still be broken when there seems there is no way out.

[Xenchantresse]

There is always the "honor suicide" which is so popular in some Eastern cultures.

[lily]

My grandfather was terminally ill and shot himself. He had emphezema and was on resperators and in a hospital bed, though he was at home... it got to be too much for him, so he asked for his gun.

This is one of the suicides I mentioned. Same circumstances, but he had it planned. He had the gun. He made sure that the most responsible one of his children were there with his wife, so she would have the support she needed. In the end, it was a relief. He was never in a nursing home thank God, but knew he was days away from being rushed to the hospital one more time and it was that one more time he couldn't take. To me, this did take courage. As for the aftermath and cleaning up, yes it was hard, but we did it for him. Some things just have to be done.

I DON'T think it's right for someone to decide for them that they should die, if they are conscious and able to make that choice for themselves.

This is where a living will comes in. If they are ready, alert hospice will ask them if they are sure they want to do this. If on the other hand they are comatose, there are two people on the living will, both know what the loved one that is dying wishes.

I can not say enought good things about hospice. It is all about the patient's last days being kept as comfortable as possible, every wish is their command. Yes, they do a lot for the family, but the person dying is their only concern.

There is another thing called "passive suicide" which I support as well. That is when a terminally ill person chooses to refuse treatment and either refuses or stops taking medication.
I think if they want to refuse tratment and allow their bodies to pass, natrually, that should be their choice as well.

Here is a gray area. Doctors sometimes make this decision for a patient when there is no one else to do so.

[Xenchantresse]

I don't like that Dr.s make those decisions either... BUT one has to consider the position that eh Dr is in too. SOMEONE has to pay for the patient's tratment if they are kept alive. Drs are often at the mercy of hospital administratin rather than their own personal feelings.

The other side is, I have heard cases where a patient is kept alive on life support, until the insurance runs out, or the state has reached their payment limit, then the hospital turns off the support. What else are they to do? They are already over crowded, and if you recall the recent hospital crisis... several trauma centers and emergency rooms were completely shut down, and patients were forced to add to the burden of other hospitals... causing a potentially deadly chain reaction of treatment shortage.

I don't think there are any easy anwers to this on a medical level, but I deffinately support a person's right to not be artificially kept alive, or forced to endure a painful illness for an extended period of time, with no hope of recovery.