ID Cards

[Zan de Man]

Tony Blair says he's confident the British public will support his introduction of ID cards as a means of proof of identity and entitlement. The planned cards will be biometic, containing details of the owner's face, eyes and fingerprints. It is the GOvernment's plan that the information on the chip would also be stored on a national identity register, accessible to the police, government departments, the Inland Revenue, immigration and intelligence services.

[Yorkist]

I've changed my mind on this issue, because I no longer trust a government which not only sells census information, but includes questions on the (mandatory) census form purely because they make the results more marketable.

[Neko]

2. Unless I was thinking of committing a crime or two while I was out. They're trying to bring in something similar here and bizarrely no one except le Canard is protesting very much. I'm not sure if I'd have to have a British one or a French one. Probably the former, which I'm not spectacularly happy with.

[Dave]

Refuse to get one or carry one. I am also dismayed concerning this new road tax. A device in your car will be able to tell which roads you have used and how many miles you have clocked up. Therefore this could be used to monitor your movements. Echos of 1984 and Big Brother.

[sir digalot]

i been carrying id round with me since the day i turned 16.... sometimes 2 or three seperate peices like passport and other proof of age card as well as a drivers license, i actuallly welcome a unified id to make my life easier and not worry about losing all the other important documents.

i do agree about the road tax thing though, i would like to see a hack out for that puppy :lol

[infinite chaos]

I've changed my mind on this issue, because I no longer trust a government which not only sells census information, but includes questions on the (mandatory) census form purely because they make the results more marketable.

So have I. I originally fell into the "only those with something to hide will protest" camp but news that several companies have already expressed interest in the information recorded worries me.

The London School Of Economics estimates (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4626425.stm) that each card will cost up to £93 and the Treasury is expecting the scheme to be self financing. On BBC breakfast, further news about the Independant on Sunday report that Biometric Data would be sold (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4624735.stm) to finance such an expensive scheme.

Some plans exist for charges for some facilities..
Immigration Minister Tony McNulty said banks would be able to verify card details against a database - for a fee.

There was also a feature on ID Cards in other countries (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3527612.stm) but what worries me most and was only lightly touched upon is the experience of those people "of colour" in these countries. Echoes of SUS law, allowing black people to be harrassed and stopped at random here. It's not the white faced black suited person who will be stopped daily but the person with dreadlocks or torn jeans or any other non Establishment features that will face daily harrassment.

Just to add -
the road tax thing though, i would like to see a hack out for that puppy

This reminds me. The plan at the moment is for ALL the information - personal, biological, financial etc etc is that it will be on ONE single database. Should we start taking bets on how long before that is hacked or the access codes end up on the internet at Ebay?

[sir digalot]

i have alot of faith regarding systems and proper access, rarely have you seen any major informatin centers hacked.... most of the time it is some dumbass releasing the information, besides none of that information is really that secure at the moment.

[potter]

i have alot of faith regarding systems and proper access, rarely have you seen any major informatin centers hacked.... most of the time it is some dumbass releasing the information, besides none of that information is really that secure at the moment.

My wifes debit card was "compromised" in that 40 million card processing hacking recently. Our bank cancelled her card.

[sir digalot]

please note the key points in the post, rarely, it is not a common occurance, and also that last part that say really not that secure.

as for social security numbers and such you can do a search for those on the internet.... they are by no means secure and also they were never meant as a form of id really, but they are used as such thesedays.

alot of the systems used are old, and i admit the hacking community ( the dishonest ones) are getting better, i only wish they would do it to the people who deserve it not the little guy.



what would be ironic is if the hacker inadvertantly screws his own debit or credit card over by doing the hack :lol

[gurutoo]

I got no problem with an ID card. What the hell do you think a drivers license is? :eyes

[Yorkist]

Hmm. I'm guessing you didn't bother to inform yourself about the data the proposed ID card may carry.

[Zan de Man]

Inform himself? You haven't been around for a while, have you Yorkist?

[sarmajor]

Bloody good idea!

Dogs have to wear a number around their neck so why should the poms not be made to do something similar?

Then, when they are lost (as they often are over here) we will know where to send them home to their mum.

Make sure that the Scots are in on it too. Then we will not have to try and decipher their incomprehensible names relayed with an incomprehensible accent.

[Yorkist]

We will know where to send them home to their mum.

Are there enough of you left over there to cope? I thought you were all over here, smoking dope and waiting on tables. ;)

[gurutoo]

Inform himself? You haven't been around for a while, have you Yorkist?

That wan't very nice.

[sarmajor]

Are there enough of you left over there to cope? I thought you were all over here, smoking dope and waiting on tables.

Only just Yorkist.

If we were not such a mob of bastards (and had mums) we would go home to them too.

[kat]

This is my first post. Many people I work with say,'If you haven't done anything what is there to worry about.' That it is precisely because the majority of people have no intention of committing an offence that we need to fight against the chipping away at our human rights. We can be traced by camera's, phones.banks, the cars we drive and now we will have to carry ID or else what? It won't stop crime, it would not have prevented the London bombing, but it will help the government keep tabs on us.You may trust this government, but what about the next one, or the one after that.
kat

[Fredfredson]

Well said Kat.

Welcome to P&CA :wave

Please take a moment and introduce yourself in the Announcements Forum.

F
:pooter

[Justin6898]

It won't stop crime, it would not have prevented the London bombing, but it will help the government keep tabs on us.

The primary purpose of such an I.D. IMO wouldn't be to stop crime, it would serve to simplify the current system.

Think about the money we could save by putting it all together. The ease it would bring.

Say you want to leave the country, but don't have a passport. You go to your city hall, scan your card, answer a couple questions and BAM, you've got your Passport.

Or, under today's system:
http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_1738.html

When a person is in a car accident and needs to be taken to the hospital, they could have their card scanned for a list of previous injuries so the doctor will know what to watch out for.

-Justin

[sir digalot]

the problem i have is not with the government since without the card they could still make any of our lives a living hell or non existant without blinking an eye, they know who we are where we are and what we are doing, which is funny coz they still do not know who the terrorists are, but can tell fred fredson what he had for lunch last thursday, ( sorry fred just an example :D)

i see the benefits of a centralised id card system, and i also see the down side, i would welcome hoever a system that would allow me to simplify my life

[Fredfredson]

The antics of the bad guys (and the good guys eventually) in "Enemy of the State" comes to mind.

F
:pooter

[Geezer38]

I think this whole identification of an individual problem will eventually be solved by implanting a chip in new babies right after birth. Wouldn't it be great if everone had one "password" for life? I must have hundreds of passwords and numbers assigned to me for banking, government identification, health care identification, and on-line activities. When I cross international borders, perhaps they could just scan my forehead?

While we are at it, let's enter all our medical records on this chip. I get a little nervous when I'm sitting in front of a doctor while he scans my voluminous medical file. What if he misses something vital? Perhaps we could also enter my dental records and x-rays; I hate to have the same tooth x-rayed over and over.

Perhaps later on, we could add some more memory capacity, I think mine is about full, I keep losing things.......... :bleh

[Yorkist]

Happy thoughts, Geezer. One question presents itself, though. Who gets control of the database?

[contracycle]

Well, I have already carried an ID card and it was not a great deal of fun at all.

In South Africa, the ID document was mandatory from the age of 16; it carried your fingerprints, your drivers license, and your gun licence(s).

An ID card scheme is pointless unless it is mandatory. If it is possible for people to say "I left it at home" without penalty, no-one will bother carrying it. Therefore, it is a certainty that it will be made a legal obligation, and that the tarif will be high to compel compliance.

Seeing as it will necessarily become a legal obligation, it fundamentally shifts the balance of power from the citizen to the state. If you wake up one morning and leave the card in your other trousers you could get arrested and imprisoned.

An ID card is a pain in the ass; it makes the citizen by default a criminal suspect, and it achieves very little in security terms (I knew kids who had fake ID books to get into clubs). But there is not likely to be an real "consciencious objector" option available, and so if it were introduced I would be obliged to carry one unhappily.

[infinite chaos]

In South Africa, the ID document was mandatory from the age of 16; it carried your fingerprints, your drivers license, and your gun licence(s).

Yes, but your details were not sold to commercial companies were they? I am prepared to pay the consequences of not carrying an ID card if the state starts selling my details to interested companies.

[Geezer38]

I'm all for it, I have nothing sinister to hide and never will have. The police need tools to provide protection. No doubt there was a hue and cry about finger printing years ago, then came photographs on driving licenses, and now facial recognition software and cameras in public places. I can see how they are all valuable tools for conducting criminal investigations.

While we are on the subject, I also think we should have an international DNA data bank; another valuable tool.

[toolman846]

I'll be carrying a national ID card when they pry it INTO my cold dead hands.

And when some asshole of aq bureacrat or other official asks for my ID, I'll say "American citizen, as in the one that's paying your friggin' salary, and that's all you need to know, asshole."

[Gilles de Rais]

And when some asshole of aq bureacrat or other official asks for my ID, I'll say "American citizen, as in the one that's paying your friggin' salary, and that's all you need to know, asshole."
I'd love to see you say that to a cop...

Anyhoo, France does have an ID card system and it's all bullshit.

I have been stopped once by cops and checked because I jumped over metro barrier (I had a pass but it was quicker to jump above ; Agility test if you wish. That was before they made metro barrier like prison doors.)

I also seen black guys asked about ID (ever so politely, mind you, but you can't help thinking that being black or brown mean you may miss your train more often than white people.)

However i find british phobia about ID card very funny. You go somewhere, you give your postcode, they tell you your whole life.

In France, we got ID card but anti-database laws (passed because of WWII experience) stopped the State (or anyone) from accessing too much info at once (although companies have ways around the law).

All in all, very funny. I chose 2. It's down to trusting your gvt. Which I don't. But what you gonna do about it ? Me ? Nothing. Maybe try to get elected so i can abuse the system from within like all the others.

[Neko]

While we are on the subject, I also think we should have an international DNA data bank; another valuable tool.

Why does this make me think of that episode of Futurama where they're planning to cross anchovies with third world kids to get cheaper production?

[infinite chaos]

I'm all for it, I have nothing sinister to hide and never will have.

Geezer, the point I am tyring to make is about how this system will be paid for - in the UK a minister was called onto TV to answer reports that your personal information could be sold on to commercial companies - these companies could then use your information to directly target sales to you. That's the part I am objecting to most.

There was talk about having genetic information sold on the open market - think about trying to get insurance when a company knows you may die from a hereditory disease, or how do you think you'd do in job interviews if your medical history could be available to your employer before you even answered any questions. There are limits for how this information should or could be used.

I for one have given up blind faith in ID cards.

[Matt_the_poet]

As one or two of you have already intimated, ID Cards are being introduced primarily for commercial reasons. The other motive is to protect those in power from us when the shit hits the fan regarding our ecological crisis. They know we'll turn on them eventually, so they're trying to scare us all into staying docile a while longer with the War on Terror, and reaping every conceivable financial benefit into the bargain.

[Gilles de Rais]

As one or two of you have already intimated, ID Cards are being introduced primarily for commercial reasons. The other motive is to protect those in power from us when the shit hits the fan regarding our ecological crisis. They know we'll turn on them eventually, so they're trying to scare us all into staying docile a while longer with the War on Terror, and reaping every conceivable financial benefit into the bargain.
Wow ! You're not half a conspiracist, aren't you ?